Alcoholics Anonymous Leads to Increased Binge Drinking – Brandsma Study

A study showed that alcoholic men who went to Alcoholics Anonymous became 9 times more likely to subsequently “binge drink” than those who used a cognitive behavioral approach.  What’s more, they were also 5 times more likely to binge than a control group who received no help with drinking.  The take-home message here is: you’re probably better off learning a cognitive behavioral approach for addressing substance use problems, or you might be better off getting no help at all* – than you would be going to AA for help with drinking!

The study in question was called the Self Help Alcoholism Research Project (SHARP), and it was done over 30 years ago, in the mid 70’s.  The results were reported in an extensive book entitled Outpatient Treatment Of Alcoholism by Jeffrey Brandsma, published in 1980.  SHARP isn’t perfect and can’t tell us everything we need to know about helping people with substance use problems, but it has some features which make it a far more valuable study than many others in the addiction field – it used a control group, and follow up interviews up to a full year post treatment [a rarity in most addiction treatment research].

Is AA really harmful to your health?  If so, why?

SHARP gathered hundreds of men with alcohol use problems, mostly through court referrals/mandates, and also through self referral and referral from providers of other social services.  They then randomly assigned each of these men to one of five different conditions.  A comparison of 3 of those conditions** leads us to the conclusion that AA can lead to increased binge drinking:

  • Lay-RBT – a cognitive behavioral form of self-help sessions led by a nonprofessional ex drug abuser who had been previously helped with professionally led RBT himself
  • Alcoholics Anonymous – the well known self-help group
  • No Treatment – a control group who received no help of any kind

The subjects in each group had about a year (46 weeks) and between 10-30 sessions of the randomly assigned “treatment” (except of course the control group, which had no sessions.  They were then interviewed at 3 month intervals for a year following the initial treatment period.

The significant differences among groups at outcome (the end of the 46 week period) were thus:

  • Only 31.6% of those assigned to AA attended enough sessions to qualify to be included in the outcome measures – i.e., they dropped out – which isn’t surprising today with the knowledge that more than half of those who attend AA drop out within 3 months, and fully 95% drop out within a year.  Retention rates aren’t everything, but AA has a horrific one.  Meanwhile, nearly 60% of those assigned to Lay-RBT qualified for outcome measure – i.e. they continued attending a decent amount of sessions.  If you think you have a helpful solution for substance use problems, you need to keep people interested in it long enough to derive what benefits are available – and if Cognitive Behavioral approaches are helpful, then with a retention rate nearly twice that of AA, they have the potential to help far more people.  AA is simply abrasive, and drives most people away.
  • The Lay RBT group had significantly fewer arrests and convictions than the AA group and control group.
  • All groups had a nearly equal rate of abstinence at outcome – but for those who were drinking, both treatment groups were drinking less per day when drinking.
Further, upon the first follow-up interview (3 months after the initial 46 week period), there were significant differences in drinking behavior among the 3 groups, as the researchers noted:
The mean number of reported binges was significantly greater for the AA group (2.37 in past 3 months) in contrast to both the control (0.56) and Lay-RBT group (0.26).  In this analysis AA was five times more likely to binge than the control and nine times more likely than the Lay-RBT.  The AA group average was 2.4 binges in the last 3 months since outcome. [my emphasis added- SS]
This increased binge rate among those in AA really is a drastic difference, but to those of us familiar with the recovery culture, it makes perfect sense – we’ve seen it happen again and again – and it also makes perfect sense that those exposed to Lay-RBT or no recovery help at all would have such lower rates of binging.  Let’s compare the 2 methods used here to understand why.

The Cognitive Behavioral approach used in the study (Lay-RBT) rests on some drastically different assumptions than conventional treatment and 12-step approaches according to the authors.  Here are a few key examples:

Disorders of the emotions and overt behavior are the result- not the cause- of irrational thinking.

The individual is responsible in the sense that he is producing his thoughts and his behaviors, and hence he and he alone can change them.

A person can literally “think what he wants to think.” He can decide to discontinue a train of thought [craving]; he does not have to think a certain way just because he has always thought that way.  Nor does he have to behave the way he has long behaved.  It is precisely at the highest cognitive level- where we make the decision about what we want to think and therefore how we want to feel- that we possess the most leverage for emotive and behavioral [drinking] change. [pages 27-29]

The goal then becomes to show someone how to deliberately think for themselves, more rationally – and this will help them to help themselves overcome emotional and behavioral problems, by their own power.  Summing up – this cognitive behavioral approach assumes that all people are in charge of both their emotions and behaviors directly at the level of freely chosen thoughts.

This is drastically different than common treatment approaches which assume that problematic emotional states and behaviors are driven by a mysterious disease, environmental factors, brain chemistry, genes – and in the case of 12-step – a spiritual deficiency.  On the contrary to CB approaches, 12-step based treatment teaches people that they are powerless to change themselves, and that only by the grace of god, with daily support and reliance upon treatment, 12 step meetings, and sponsors, can the troubled person hope to remain free of substance use.  What’s more, they’re taught that outside factors known as “triggers” will cause them to use substances.

Perhaps most importantly to the point of today’s topic – standard 12-step based treatment teaches people that they have no control over alcohol use, that their ‘disease’ is progressively getting worse (whether or not they’re currently drinking), and that a single whiff or sip of alcohol will send them on an uncontrollable rampage of drinking.  It is commonly said within the recovery culture that if you start drinking again after a period of abstinence, you will go right back to your most extreme levels of drinking, and then quickly go far beyond that.  In stark contrast to the foundations of cognitive behavioral approaches, the purveyors of conventional treatment and average 12-step members alike, violently oppose any suggestion that problematic substance use is a freely chosen behavior.

As a logical conclusion of the belief that problem drinkers are not in control of their drinking, AA also teaches an all or nothing view of alcohol use which surely contributes to the binge drinking phenomenon.  They say that moderation is essentially impossible, and attack anyone who claims it is possible – as being dangerous (and responsible for the death of problem drinkers).  The authors of the study point this out as a potential problematic issue:

The 3-month follow-up indicated that AA members had increased their binges and more often drank in order to feel superior.  Perhaps the philosophy of total abstinence did not work well for these men – perhaps it led to depression and a tendency to go from one extreme to the other.

The Bottom Line

The bottom line is, AA (and the entire recovery culture) paints a grim picture of habit change, and in fact teaches people they’re incapable of it.  The CB approach mentioned above paints a more hopeful self-empowered picture of personal change.  People then tend to live up to the beliefs they take on as a consequence of exposure to these views – uncontrollably binging in the case of exposure to AA.

To anyone who’s read research about locus of control, this also shouldn’t be surprising.  Those with an internal locus of control fare far better on any number of life quality measures from experiencing happier marriages to higher incomes – than those with an external locus of control.  The recovery culture instills a decidedly external locus of control (“admit you’re powerless over alcohol”, “let go and let god”, reliance upon sponsors and meetings, fear of “triggers”), while cognitive behavioral approaches instill a decidedly internal locus of control.  Think twice before you send your loved one to an AA meeting or conventional treatment program.

* Although this discussion is based on a comparison of two diametrically opposed models of self-help (12-step and and Cognitive Behavioral) and a control group, I still say you might be better off getting “no help at all” because even the professional “help” commonly available for addiction is almost guaranteed to include 12-step elements and rests on premises inherent to 12-step, and clearly at odds with cognitive behavioral approaches.

** 2 of those conditions were left out of this analysis because they were therapies provided by therapists (RBT and Insight Therapy) – as opposed to self-help methods.  As the authors noted “These three groups were chosen out of the larger research project mainly because of the important empirical questions that would be addressed.  Beyond this, the greater similarity of these groups might have decreased the variance problems encountered in statistical analysis of all five groups.”

SOURCE: Outpatient Treatment of Alcoholism, A Review and Comparative Study.  Jeffrey M Brandsma Ph.D., University Park Press, Baltimore, 1980

By Steven Slate

Steven Slate has personally taught hundreds of people how to change their substance use habits through choice - while avoiding the harmful recovery culture and disease model of addiction.

158 comments

  1. This post is atrocious!!!! This website is atrocious!!!! Not sure if you heard, but there is scientific evidence that addiction of any sort is considered a disease. Now, there are people that choose to treat that disease and there are people that choose not to. THAT IS THE CHOICE!!! Sorry, but I did not choose to destroy my family, but i did choose to ask for help and mend my relationships (which I did)! I’m glad that you have all these stats for AA, which they all are true, but eveything is depends upon the individual! The literature states, ” Rarely have we seen a person fail who has throughly followed our path!” This statement is also very true. AA is hard work, but if a person works the program to the fullest, they will not fail!!! I have seen many people in the program fail, but they were not doing everything suggested to them! I am guessing that people from this site have NEVER HAD THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION, because they would never post ridiculous information like this!!!!

      1. Not sure where my post went, but I did post a comment.
        To answer your question Steve, It was insanity.
        Step 2 states: “Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to SANITY.”
        If you get a chance Steve, check google THIQ.

        1. Again, I ask the question: Why would you make amends for behavior that you did not choose? i.e. – if there is a disease which causes you to destroy your family life through drinking, then you’re not responsible for it, and you shouldn’t apologize to anyone about it. Would you expect an older relative with alzheimer’s to apologize for behavior caused by alzheimer’s disease (true “insanity)?

          Thanks for all your wonderful advice:

          Not sure if you heard, but there is scientific evidence that addiction of any sort is considered a disease.

          If you get a chance Steve, check google THIQ.

          My thanks are of course, sarcastic – in case you couldn’t tell. If you haven’t noticed, several (possibly a majority) of the pages and posts on this site are dedicated to reviewing and analyzing the “evidence” and illogic that addiction and alcoholism are diseases.

          I was given the THIQ talk in my first rehab-stay back in 1997, at High Watch Farm (founded by Bill Wilson himself!). It’s a dead hypothesis, and folklore at this point. I only ever hear it from hardcore 12-steppers. You might note that not even Nora Volkow, Kevin Mccauley, or any other notable disease-concept pushers are even mentioning the term ‘THIQ’ today.

          First – nobody was able to replicate the results of the initial study which sparked the hypothesis. As the Addiction Science Research and Education Center of Texas University noted on their “Myths” page:

          36. THIQs are a cause of alcoholism. This is an old theory, which was very attractive in the early 1970s. It suggested that alcoholics, when they drink, form opiate-like THIQs (abbreviation for several artificially-formed chemicals) in the brain, to which they become dependent. Later research was not able to consistently find THIQs in the tissues of alcoholics compared to those of non-alcoholics. Thus, the “THIQ theory” is no longer popular among most scientists.

          Second – there are some things about the THIQ hypothesis which clash with newer theories (disclaimer, I don’t necessarily agree with these theories). It’s said that THIQ is a “permanent” blocker – currently, drug companies are in a race to create blockers for every drug of abuse – because the theory is that by blocking the effect of the drug, the desire to use the drug will be extinguished because people will learn that it offers no reward. If THIQ is truly a blocker, then it should, by currently promoted logic, cause people to stop drinking.

          Third – the folklore about THIQ’s comes along with a neat little (false) story about how the researcher who discovered it in alcoholic cadavers thought that she was looking at the brains of heroin addicts, because it’s a chemical produced in heroin addiction, and was shocked to learn that these weren’t heroin users at all. This means that the way the THIQ theory is presented rests its entire claim upon the assumption that heroin addiction, specifically, is a disease. So if you’re gonna claim that alcohol addiction is a disease based on the THIQ hypothesis, you still haven’t proven anything, you’ve only noted a similarity between heroin and alcohol addiction (a similarity which I don’t even know to be true, but then I’m not the guy pushing this theory) – if the similarity holds true, you would then need to show that heroin addiction is indeed a disease (in order to have a logically sound argument) – and this brings us down yet another rabbit hole.

          I suppose one day I will post a reference page on the THIQ hypothesis, so I can simply link to it when it’s brought up, as it always is by the most hardcore of 12-steppers. Not that I respect the addiction research world, but c’mon, their job is to disseminate the disease concept and they don’t even talk about this THIQ nonsense at this point! If the THIQ hypothesis is the first thing brought up by so many steppers as a defense of the disease model, it shows how truly isolated and out of touch your little world is.

          1. So, Steven, I guess you are also stating that people with bi-polar disorders and schizophrenia have a choice about developing their illness, because they cause harm to there family as well. ALCOHOLISM IS MEDICALLY PROVEN TO BE A DISEASE!!! There are four words that the medical profession use to characterise a disease or illness …
            Primary
            Progressive
            Chronic
            Fatal
            Is it primary? Well, alcoholism is a describable and identifiable condition that causes other physical problems like liver damage and malnutrition so it can be regarded as an illness in it’s own right, therefore making it primary.
            As for it being progressive … alcoholism definitely tends to get worse over time so there can be no arguments about that one. It is also something that stays in the body, whether or not a triggering substance has activated it, whether it be alcohol or another drug.
            An alcoholic who has been clean for a couple of years and relapses again will experience drinking like he hasn’t had that break for two years. In other words, your body responds as if you’ve continued using all that time even though there was a break for two years.
            In the case of drug addicts who have stopped and come back to using after a period of time often end up overdosing because it feels like they haven’t been away, but their body actually can’t handle the doses they’re putting in anymore.
            Alcoholism is also unquestionably chronic because it is a condition that gets worse over time and is long-lasting or recurrent. Many expers say it can be arrested – but never cured.
            And as for it being fatal, most definitely. We all know that alcoholism kills – and that many people die from this terrible illness every day.
            Also, I glad you have all your wonderful stats, but I went to my AA home group last night in my little town in Northern California and just the people celebrating a birthday summed up to well over 200 years and they are still coming back. I guess you can’t debunk that statistic?????

            1. If you want a point by point explanation of why this is an insane conclusion on your part:

              So, Steven, I guess you are also stating that people with bi-polar disorders and schizophrenia have a choice about developing their illness, because they cause harm to there family as well.

              I can give you one – or you could just read back through the comments carefully.

              What I find incredible here, is that you’re supporting my arguments against AA. The point of this post was that after exposure to 12-step programs, people become more likely to binge – and that I think it’s due to the fact that they learn that this is what’s supposed to happen, and because of the concept of addiction that they’re taught. And here you come along, giving my readers a beautiful example of the brainwashing in self-defeating nonsense that happens in AA, and you’ve attested to the fact that this post abstinence bingeing is indeed commonplace within AA. For this, I sincerely thank you.

              I want you to know that my goal is not to convince you to leave AA. As long as you love it, you should stick with it. But please recognize that you’re in the minority – you’re a 5-per-center – the other 95% of people who go to AA end up leaving very quickly, most within a few months. Yet these people have problems which they want to solve, and they’re told that AA is the only way to solve those problems. It is not. The vast majority of people with substance use problems (and when I use that term, it encompasses what you know as substance abuse, substance dependence, alcoholism, addiction, etc) – solve their problems without AA or treatment – a majority of them returning to moderate levels of substance use. Yet, we live in a society where views of substance use are dominated by the recovery culture’s (12-step and rehab industry) very mistaken and asinine dogma – and these are passed along as gospel, treated as sacred cows, not to be questioned. It is the views of the recovery culture which are wrong – and those who seek to make those views unquestionable, are the dangerous ones.

              Just so you know, your own sobriety is directly the product of your own choice – even if it was a placebo effect that convinced you to make that choice. Give yourself credit.

          2. Steven,

            I am NOT in a CULT, nor am I BRAINWASHED!!!! Also, it is not okay to relapse or drink or use in recovery, but unfortunately people do! In AA, what would you like us to do rather then be supportive of the people that go out??? Beat them over the head with a club and tell them they are a waste of a human being???? If you knew the program like you say you do, you would know that that is not our nature! Also, you would not say that we are brainwashed!!! “The only requirement for AA membership is the desire to stop drinking.” Sorry, we don’t kick our members out of the program!!! EVERY person that I saw fail in AA did not work the program as suggested. I may be a 5-per-center, but I work hard to stay sober and I do what is suggested by my sponsor!!! Do you know how many people a day walk into a meeting because they are court mandated?? Do you really expect any of those people to stay because the judge thought it was a good idea??? It is a SIMPLE and enjoyable program and is full proof IF YOU DO WHAT THE REST OF US HAVE DONE, but that is not the case all the time!! I have a completely normal life and I am not a FLDS member! I am 31 with a wife and 2 small children! I support my family by going to work everyday!! I have a house! I have 2 dogs and a fish! I GET to go to AA meetings 5 days a week!!! That is a PRIVILEGE!!! I did not have these things 13 months ago BECAUSE OF MY DISEASE!!! It is now my duty to pay it back to the newcomers, so they can get relief that I have. And guess what, I don’t get any money for it like you do!!!!!

          3. All of our decisions are ultimately influenced by various, complex cognitive and environmental circumstances. It is impossible to separate “choice” from external influences that lead to a particular behaviour. Using addiction or any other motivator as an excuse to negate the personal responsibility of an individual for taking a particular action is not only irresponsible but counterintuitive to the process of both healing and establishing healthy behavioural patterns.

            1. I’ve learned that consciousness as seen by the spiritual seeker demonstrates that there is no cause and effect. That is man-made dualistic and linear thinking. A does not cause B which then causes C. The truth is in the moment as where life is lived.

              As far as ducking responsibility under the guise of addiction, yeah that’s bogus. A.A. is a program that seeks a spiritual solution to the malady. What does a spiritual solution mean? Well if you’re into Big Pharm, the field of medicine in general, treatment centers, the judicial or corrections system built around the addictions and alcoholism, etc., it means disaster. To the recovered alcoholic from Alcoholics Anonymous like myself, the spiritual solution is merely about getting square with you fellows and taking responsibility for your sober life and lending a hand to the new guy who wants and does sobriety with the caveat that they do likewise.

            2. When we speak of responsibility, we should consider the context. With regards to alcoholics, the concern is righting a wrongdoing… in our behavior usually. A.A. says that penance does not lead to success, but changing the behavior or amending the behavior or choosing the positive behavior… is the way.

              For the alcoholic to do this, we need a new mind. It’s just that simple. I will not change my mind for you. You can shame me, snub me, punish me, reward me. When your watching me, I will change my behavior. When you’re not watching me, I will unchange.

              The only way for an alcoholic to change their mind, and thus their behavior attitude etc., is for them to berate their own actions and thoughts. When this awareness happens, some surrender to the truth and thus become willing to … change or be changed. Willingness is so powerful that once a person becomes willing, they are changed… like a key unlocking a door.

    2. Where is this scientific evidence you speak of, Matt? I can’t find it. All I can find are ancient and biased studies by people with agendas. Look into it, I think you’ll see that current medical and scientific trends do not support your statement. In fact, they are the complete opposite.

      1. Really?? Did you not see my post above??? The 4 classifications of a disease???? Addiction falls under all 4 classifications:
        Primary
        Progressive
        Chronic
        Fatal

        1. Matt, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder until 1977. Then researchers got a clue. Same thing is happening with addiction. Your defensiveness in regards to the truth is astounding…

          Also, you can’t quote the Big Book and use it as “scientific evidence”. My opinion? You’re somewhat new in AA and very grateful. That’s great. But trust me – once you’ve been around for awhile, you will (hopefully) begin to stop looking at the world in such a black and white way. Matt, AA has flaws. It’s OK to admit that. In fact, not admitting to this and irrationally defending it is an indictment on the rigid and dogmatic nature of the program.

          1. Everything in this world has flaws! This is what works for me and millions of others. None of my above post that you commented on came from the Big Book. It actually came from an AMA website, so maybe once your around the program for awhile, you will (hopefully) begin to see that AA is not so black and white!!!

          2. Thank you ZSL! One sign of a cult is that the members are inflexible and unable to even consider they are in fact IN a cult and brainwashed. As soon as they can admit this, the sooner they can get free and make conscious choice. It is a catch 22 though … once one realizes the damage done, it is often too late. Years spent in a mind-control cult such as the 12 steps does not make it easy to admit the lies and indoctrination … and the waste of precious time. Life is much bigger than ‘powerlessness’ and the ‘disease theory’ of addiction. That is all it is … a theory. Steppers have spent their lives counting on a theory of learned helplessness, chanting ‘it works if you work it’ and ‘keep coming back.’ The deprograming that needs to occur after the truth has been revealed is sometimes too much to bear for the fragile ego of a stepper.

            1. Well you can say cult all day long and dissect the spiritual principles of A.A. all day long with your misrepresentation of powerlessness and ducking responsibility, but you have nothing to offer.

              You do offer a huge gouge in somebody’s wallet.

              All A.A. does is motivate a person to clean up their own life, get right with their fellows, rebuild a life that’s worth living, and passing it on… for free!

              Or you can go to Big Pharm and take a pill. Your choice.

            4. I went to your Cougarblog and saw your concern about Bill Wilson’s step 4 example.

              I have a different take on it than you. For one thing, I see it as an example, not a real life story. The guy was evidently having some problems at work and at home due to his drinking. He was having troubles with his wife I think because some guy at his work who was competing with him for a promotion knew about his mistress and liked his wife, who also wanted the house put in her name.

              Was it something like that? I don’t have a book handy. There was a Mr. Brown in there somewhere.

              Anywho, you seem to think that we recovered alcoholics are a bunch of red-necked white supremist chauvinistic biggoted right-winged men who are cheering on the adulterous drunk and don’t think the bitch should get the house and the car and the kids in the divorce, am I right?

              Well, we just see this as an example of what a drunk can get themselves into and how their problems pile up on them and how quitting drinking would seem like a hard thing to do and how facing their pile of problems insurmountable.

              What we recovered alcoholics do with inventory like that is finish off that third column, find our part and get on with our amends. The amends might be to quit the job, turn the keys over to the wife, wish her and Mr Brown good luck and start over.

              We know his life is a mess. He’s a thief for padding his expense account and he’s gonna have to pay that money back. He’s gonna have to fess up to his wife for the mistress and stop the infidelity or cut her loose or whatever. Either way, he’s caused her harm he probably can never fully right. I’m sure her lawyer will straighten some things out. She may ask him who the mistress is. Pages 75 to 83 give some examples of how to make some specific amends. For example, should he tell her how he boinked this other chick? What positions they used? What kind of perfume and mouthwash she used? What kind of undergarments she wore? How she groomed herself down there? We think not. Sometimes frankness is warranted and sometimes details are kept to a minumum.

              But will she divorce him? Who knows? Not always. Time will tell. What’s important is for him to get sober and start working these things out so he stops being a drunken cheating stealing pig.

              Now, if you hate a guy like this, good for you. If you find yourself wanting to marry a guy like this, then there’s another program for you called alanot. Good luck.

            6. I can come and go as I please. No koolade.

              I go to one meeting a week. Wow. What a waste of life.

              No, it takes a radical atheist like you to waste time spin ing your wheels.

              My brain works just fine and I’m not powerless. I have power and I use it. I am sponsor-free. I don’t chant. I don’t even recruit.

              I spend a couple of months per year doing a set of steps.

              I’m sober and I enjoy life being sober.

        2. Knowing that people like Matt are breeding and raising children into this world frightens me. Nothing personal to the guy, I’m sure he means well. It’s just very apparent that he is developmentally disabled – his capacity for abstract thought and reasoning has been severely compromised. Not sure if it’s genetic or what not, but his comments solidify the author’s points about the damage being caused by recovery culture doctrine.

          1. Derek,

            Your right! There is nothing personal about bringing my children into a discussion about addiction, or questioning my parenting, or talking about where I come from. You must know me all to well, just from posts on a website. Your pretty good! Your beginning to change my thinking with your wonderful, positive comments! What was I thinking commenting on a website being developmentally disabled and all! Keep up the good work! Putting down people you know nothing about is going to get you places. Excuse me, I am going to go brainwash my children now, and then call my mom and tell her how much I hate her!

          2. Derek…Nothing personal to you. I’m sure you do indeed mean well ;0) It’s just very apparent that you’re a person who chooses to get your kicks from ill-intended, predatory attacks on those you measure as beneath your… lol… ‘developmental’ standard. But then…that’s the kind of behavior we would expect from a coward in this kind of forum.

            Hmmm…I dunno…On your ‘breeding’ theories? I’m thinkin’ the proliferation of the variety of ‘pestilent/predatory personality genes are those that the majority of us would be more frightened by, and would elect to cut out of the gene pool, so to speak. So…like…Snip snip, Derek ;0).

            Matt…Don’t take bait from boneheads -Toxic folks who actually convince themselves that the rest of us can’t ‘read through’ to their hubris. Mr Meyer appears to be one those that ‘runs low’ in terms of sense of human decency and purpose in his own life…so he trolls for ways to fill his sad void by intentionally trying to make others feel as badly about themselves as he does about himself….which I’m figurin’ is ‘pert near’ impossible for anyone to feel as badly about themselves as he does.

            But… let’s try to look for the positives in any circumstance. Lol…You gotta’ admit his unconscionable remarks do have an entertainment value, of sorts. I mean, the guy actually believes he’s coming off as a ‘big thinker’, rather than the little pr*ck that he is.

            You can always spot these types, Matt. They will inevitably start or finish their predatory comment with the old standard disclaimer “Nothing personal, but…”. Or… my favorite “No ‘offense’, but…”

            Most of time when folks, like this, use these particular phrases as bookends to their statements/comments; it’s a relative certainty that they are about to go all ‘misery loves company’, or that they just did.These ’emotionally disabled’ types do it for the sport of it. You know…It’s that whole ’empty bag syndrome’. What else can they use? It’s all they got:0)

            Keep on keepin’ on in your journey, Matt…Do what works ‘for you’. Your family is blessed to have you in their lives. No doubt you’re raising healthy, socially conscious kids. They are fortunate to have you as a dad.

            Just encouraging you not to ‘feed the monsters’ in forums like this.. Focus on the meritable information provided by those here that are not dropping by for the sport of being mean and critical. The majority of people commenting on this site truly seem to have a spirit of sharing sound information as their goal. It’s a well done site, in my opinion. And, there is nothing wrong with some ‘respectful debate’ about the information shared. We are not going to all agree about the information. But that’s cool. Because respectful debate is how we ultimately develop consensus and evolve in best practices.

            Where peeps like Mr. Meyer are concerned: You probably won’t be successful in effecting change in the hearts or minds of those who evidence themselves as having little of either. Don’t invest your energies in places/people that don’t serve up something of value you can utilize in a positive way for yourself, your loved ones…your life. Namaste, Matt :0)

          3. Derek – right on! Scary indeed. This cult religion commonly known as the 12 steps relies on developmentally disabled people to continue fighting for the cult doctrine and recruiting others into the fold. Also, for anyone writing anywhere … when you abbreviate ‘you are’ the proper abbreviation is YOU’RE, not your. Literally disabled too!

            1. Yeah, I’m annoyed by misspelled words too… when I’m reading a potential employee’s resume. I don’t know about you, but I’m typing this post on a 2″ x 4″ cell phone. Grammar is not a top priority for most. But look at me! See how accomplished my punctuation and grammar is… as I pat myself on the back.

              Please, could you actually say something next time you post here? I’ve kinda (sic) got stuff to do.

              While we’re at it, let’s dig up our favorite anti/XAer complaints to choose to bitch about;

              ○ Cult
              ○ Religion, pseudo-fake religion
              ○ Old prejudiced white man W.A.S.P. right-wing gatekeepers
              ○ Rapists
              ○ Felons
              ○ A.A. World Services money grabbers
              ○ Bill Wilson the whoring LSD popping adulterous free-loader
              ○ Dr. Bob Smith the whacko proctologist
              ○ 5% recovery
              ○ 1% recovery
              ○ -10% recovery
              ○ Nazi-loving Oxford Groupers
              ○ Midtown
              ○ Big Book
              ○ Slogans
              ○ Treatment Centers
              ○ Disease
              ○ Amends
              ○ Prayer
              ○ Meditation
              ○ Ouija Boards
              ○ Coffee
              ○ Cake
              ○ Chips
              ○ Sponsors
              ○ Cigarettes
              ○ Real
              ○ Alcoholic
              ○ Abstinence
              ○ Marty Mann
              …

              If you read that, you’re (Hey! I got it!) a happy woman.

              what’s a bad day for a bleeding alanon or a good Anti/XAer (anti and/or ex A.A.er)? That’s right. Nothing to piss and moan about.

        3. Matt – its not a disease. Its a choice. AA has become very culty. It is filled with sexual predators and violent criminals and crazy controlling old timers. Be careful.

    3. Matt- Hi. I find your post curious to say the least. You say its not okay to relapse or use in AA. Really? I think when AA first started Bill and Bob were kissing people’s asses just to have them join their “fellowship”.

      After decades in AA I have left and I have come to th econclusion that AA is a cult and that AA is very harmful, espiecaly to young people.

      There are many other options now to AA and NA and they need the same free promotion that AA is getting.

      things are so bad there is a site called http://www.leavingaa.com so that people who have been harmed and hurt by AA members and its culture can get help.

      http://www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com for those who have been sexually harassed , harmed and raped.

      1. The first relapse (that nearly killed someone I love) was triggered by a thoughtless/baseless unconscionable communication by his “AA sponsor” shortly after he began investing his energy/his spirit into the program.

        My loved one- who was a teen at the time- was highly impressionable and vulnerable, like most other troubled teens in the same set of circumstances would be. And, also, like most young people in the same set of circumstances, he believed what this idiot told him about “sobriety”. This included him taking my loved one to task for not being “sober” on the grounds that because he was taking prescribed antidepressants from his physician then ” he wasn’t essentially sober or ‘working the program’.

        GOOD GOD… Could there be a more irresponsible dumb ass than this “sponser”? I mean…my loved one had worked his ass off in hopes of proving his human worthiness to his ‘peers’ and himself…and probably in that order too (back, then, anyway) Right. ‘worthiness’ as it was framed by this boneheaded sponsors ideology, of course).

        My loved one looked up to the guy…Of course he was going to take what this idiot said as being ‘correct’. I mean, after all, the guy had all these revered ‘sobriety chips’. Why wouldn’t that make him the expert? For the record: We had no idea that our loved one was being fed this shit by the very person who was supposed to – above all- have his back as he was trying to make his way to a better existence. But, after I found out about my loved one having been told that he wasn’t ‘sober’ because he took doctor prescribed antidepressants…Let’s just say, that if I could have found the way to have severely beaten the so called ‘sponsor’ within an inch of his miserable life…That is if there had been a way to do it without increasing the blow back and trauma we experienced as a result of the toxic sewage this ‘enlightened sponsor’ spewed out of his mouth that night -Toxic bullshit that, in one fail swoop, leveled the foundation of self efficacy my loved one was trying desperately to add to…Well I’m not ashamed to say…that not only would I have beaten most of the life out this idiot…But i would have ‘delighted’ in his pain.

        That was a long time ago…I’ve come a long way since then as an advocate, supportive family member via doing the work required to understand addiction and recovery on a complex level. But the guy -hugely responsible for the near death of an incredible teen (at the time) and wonderful human being- will never know how fortunate he was that I chose not to ‘re-school’ him regarding what ‘sober’ is and is not.

        I’m sharing a ‘personal experience’ related to AA. This is what “I” experienced as a family member. I’m not suggesting that ‘every’ AA sponsor is capable of being this kind of ignorance and negligence. But, I do agree that some aspects of this particular brand of “peer influence”, can inadvertently create an environment that adds risks of increased coping with substances for some people, rather than lessening it.

      2. Massive and PJ,

        Massive, I am glad that you have a new found freedom. I agree that there are many other possible options for people, and whatever option they choose, and long as that keeps them from using, is ok by me. Just reading posts on this site does open my eyes a bit, but I am still proud to be a member of AA. I guess I am just happy that I have centered myself around people that will not harm my sobriety.

        PJ, that is a horror story to say the least, but I am thankful that it did not escalate to death. I do pick and choose the people and meetings that work for me. There are definitely people in meetings that I just shrug off because their message is not useful, and could possibly effect my sobriety. I guess I am not an AA fundamentalist after all. Also, I do agree and thoroughly enjoyed your previous posts on social stigmas on addiction. The one that bugs me is that every addict must have gone through some form of abuse as a child or they would not be an addict. You continue to make me think, and that is not always a good thing, PJ! Thank you again for your great posts!

        Matt

    4. Matt- this website is great and filled with lots of wisdom. AA is a dying breed. All of it. May I ask you a questions? What study did Bill ever do to validate Chapter 5 /…Its 50% lies. 50% junk made up religion. Ask yourself why am I listening to this made up stuff from 1935? Why do have to go there forever. Why do you think you are broken. Who make up this sh*t? Bill was an idiot who could support himself. Listen to my radio shows on blog talk radio called Safe Recovery. Listen to the ones where we talk about the AA literature. You may look at the book differently….or maybe not. Its your life your time. After 3 decades in AA I am sorry I didn’t see the truth years ago. Also AA is very damaging for teens. RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!

      1. Wow Massive. 30 years! You sound like someone who would kick the Easter Bunny in the face.

        A.A. has become a place where I see folks in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, etc. try to show others that this is a place where they can come for an hour a week to find a spiritual way out of their drinking nightmare.

        If you can get sober any other way, do it. SMART, RR, AVRT, etc., thats great. All I see you do on your site is bitch about A.A. A.A.. is not a place where young people get raped and vitimized by criminals. It’s just not. But spend your life digging out articles where A.A. has failed the new helpless victim.

        In the meantime, get me a list where I can find Anti-A.A. Hate meetings. It looks fun.

  2. I’m glad that this works for you Mr. Slate, but there is a huge difference between substance use, substance abuse, and addiction!!! In your bio it states that you had a problem with substance use! I am guessing you were court mandated into the rooms of AA! Well, if you have a problem with substance use, AA is not going to work for you! I went from substance use, to substance abuse, to addiction, and there is a HUGE difference and I did not have a choice!! Do you think I chose to destroy my familys’ lives??? I did choose to be in recovery though. I will carry this disease for the rest of my life, and if I choose not to treat it, I will ended up right back where I was before and/or dead!!! You should not say some of the things on this site because THIS is dangerous to people with the disease of addiction. You are trying to help the average substance user, which is great, but the average substance use is NOT AN ADDICT, nor does he/she think like one!!! Please adjust your website accordingly because you obviously have no knowledge on the subject. There is no possible way you could understand the addict brain, unless you have one!!!

    1. you said ….and there is a HUGE difference and I did not have a choice!!

      Yes you did have a choice. We always have a choice. AMericans have become so lazy and this generation is the worst. BLaming all your problems on addiction and “omg I cant control myself!!! WHat a lie.

      1. I guess I am just confused… How is the choice to walk into an AA meeting all that different from the choice to avoid a drink? Alcohol abuse may be something you struggle with your whole life, but it is not a disease you carry.

        1. Sorry I missed this comment – you hit the nail on the head Joe. I had a call from someone the other day who was told “don’t drink, and go to meetings.” Why couldn’t you not drink and watch tv; or, don’t drink, and go to the gym; or don’t drink, and sit around in boredom? AA is still telling you to make a choice – and yet, saying directly that you have a choice over whether you drink or not is somehow the most offensive thing in the world.

          1. Good job on cherry-picking that fine MOTR (middle of the road) and otherwise bogus slogan that you DO hear in SOME A.A. meetings. You won’t hear that in my group, nor from me. To tell somebody to Don’t drink and… is the worst thing you could tell a new person to sobriety. They probably have already tried to Don’t drink after every time they over-indulged, gotten hurt by booze, or hurt somebody else by their drunken behavior. If this is NOT the case, then they are just psychopaths.

            Don’t drink and go to meetings either came from treatment centers or Recover”ing” alcoholics.

            Good find. Bravo to ya! Steven Slate +1, bad A.A., -5.

    2. Always with the exclamation points with the AA zealots. Matt, you likely have what is defined as hystrionic personality disorder. AA speaks to you because you glam onto and create drama and creating the disease model of addiction interfaces perfectly with your real illness. The rub is, you actually can control yourself, it’s just more fun for you to draw attention to yourself and act out. That’s the difference between your manufactured mental illness and a real one like schizophrenia. Read something other than the idiotic Big Book and lay of the exclamation point key.

      1. Travis, you’re responding to a comment from over a year ago. I’m pro A.A. and have been continuously sober for over 9 years now. Let’s agree on this; there’s no wrong way to get and stay sober so long as your cult of choice doesn’t lead to rape, sexual nor financial exploitation, etc. A.A. does not align with the disease concept. The steps are merely a replacement for the seeking of a higher state of consciousness. A.A. is hated by radical atheists and folks living off of the treatment industry. Which one are you?

      2. Thanks for the diagnosis Dr. Travis. I will make sure I seek immediate medical treatment. Your so good that you can diagnose me from some shitty comments on a shitty website.

        1. Easy Matt. These anti/XAers from Stinkin Thinkin aka http://www.donewithaa.wordpress.com will use your profanity against you and belittle your success in sobriety by pointing out your perceived hostile attitude. To what end? I have no clue. But I say why give them the pleasure?

          One thing’s for certain ; they hate A.A. and are set on proving that the place is run by rapists.

          To what end? I still have no clue. It gives them something to do. They’re the same crowd who hate all organized religion and praise secular recovery advocates.

          1. It has much to do with the industry because AA is their competition, and it’s free. There is no other way to discredit AA other than to expose some of the weaknesses with-in the fellowship. AA isn’t perfect nor has a 100% success rate. With that said, I know many people who’s parents paid out the nose to send them to these fancy-shmancy recovery centers. These people thrive on the family because they have no clue as to “how” to get their loved one better. I have a story to support my claim.

            My girlfriends parents were very worried about her and didn’t know what to do at the time. All the while, her father was a full blown alcoholic. (the irony) Anyways, they made a call and this guy flys in from New Jersey, I assume. This guy meets with her parents and starts getting them really scared by what he’s telling them. Their tactic is to prey on the family members and get them to shell out thousands of dollars to send their loved one away, to their facility, to be “cured.” The guy even went as far as to ask the family about her friends in order to find out a way to bribe my gf into agreeing to go away; and that’s exactly what happened. My gf said no and her family told her they were going to turn her friend in at work because her friend had a problem, also, and she was a registered nurse.today, my gf and I know this was the doings of the guy the treatment center flew up to meet with her family. So, long story short, my gf agrees to go away for he “treatment” somewhere in NJ.

            Fast forward a few years and her family realizes they’ve been swindled by this guy who was supposed to help. Yes, help. He did everything but help, but…..he did a good job at getting the family’s money to send her away. I look at it as a scam because they lie to the families, knowing full well they haven’t got a clue and believe this is the absolute “best” thing to do.

            We can all agree that that is one of the worst, if not the worst, way to go about getting someone help. I’d rather have had her family Section 35’d her than to be robbed like they were. It’s pretty bad when these places go I to “bribe mode” in order to get a client. My message to families is to get educated before you go into the process of trying to get someone who is addicted help. Being a recovered addict, I believe recovery doesn’t happen until a person has become willing to get clean. It’s not something that can be forced, it’s something that comes with time and experience.

    3. I have been treated for addiction in 3 treatment centers and I am sorry but Matt Says you must be a very pitiful person. I know what “ADDICTION” is like and I know what recovery is as well. AA is not recovery. It is a perpetuation of the same character flaws you are trying to remove. I have worked the program to the fullest and taken others through the steps and their families tell me I saved their son/daughter’s life. This is not the case. The lies you told yourself to get to treatment don’t matter (I don’t have a choice. I am powerless. or any other excuse). Self-serving bias at it’s utmost. Today thankfully my eyes are open to my inadequacies and the true means of recovery. Life. I had the choice. It may have been harder to make on the mornings I woke up sick or in a puddle of blood but I had a choice. Today I still have a choice, and my choice leads to progress for treatment of addiction as a whole and not just those who will adopt the cultish AA doctrine.

  3. Matt…If what you are invested in terms of a support resource regarding your substance use disorder..(that is12-step facilitation/AA meetings and sponsorship) helps you to maintain/demonstrate a sense of calm confidence, peace and hope about your challenge …. If your involvment in AA serves in empowering you, and assisting you in increasing your awareness of your innate ability to consistently, gradually cope better and better with your individual circumstances/ challenges…If your choice of support resource inspires you to continue to define your individual path to better quality of life and well being by making healthier and healthier decisions for yourself, and for your loved ones…If you experience yourself, as result of your involvement in 12 step facilitation,as being successful in building and increasing not only your sense of self efficacy but, also, your motivation to encourage others, in terms of a general philosophy regarding the support of others toward a ‘to each their own path to change/recovery’;Then, by all means, keep on keeping on with exactly what your doing. There’s nothing on this site (at least not that I can see – and I consider myself a pretty reasonable/level person) that suggests or even implies that you abandon ‘your’ chosen method/resource for help and support in facilitating change in your health/life.

    It’s important to respect all views, and allow people their own paths to change. One size treatment/support philosophy has never been, will never be appropriate for all. 12-step facilitation works for some. It’s ok to disagree with someone’s views. Hell, it’s not even a crime to disagree with evidence-based facts about addiction/sustance use disorder. Main thing is that we encourage/support good, thoughtful discussion about it. That’s really the only way we arrive at best-practices methodologies and attitudes about how to respond to, treat, intervene in and prevent addiction.

    Wishing you ever-increasing health and well being, Matt. And…. all of us :0)

    1. PJ,

      Thank you and I completely agree with you, but unfortunately the author of this website does not, and that is what i have a problem with. To tell people in your bio that you are not hear to “bash” AA, and then in turn title this post “Alcoholics Anonymous Leads to Increased Binge Drinking” or comment to my post “And here you come along, giving my readers a beautiful example of the brainwashing in self-defeating nonsense that happens in AA.” For someone who has no education on the subject or is looking for recovery, this could be extremely detrimental to them and/or cost them there life! I ask you, What is the harm of trying AA??? People fail because they do not follow suggestions PERIOD!!! SOMEONE DIES EVERY 19 MINUTES FROM THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION, and it worries me that someone who is struggling with their addiction and lands on this site and wants to make a change, but sees the title of this post; never comes to a meeting and their addiction ends up killing them. There are many other comments by the author of this site in other posts that he truly IS bashing AA! THAT IS WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH!!! I could care less how people get sober, but I would NEVER put down another recovery program that was helping others!

      1. AA does lead to binge drinking. hundreds of people have documented this. Never mind the sexual 13 steppers who have hurt so many young AA members!

        1. .AA = Alcoholics = Bing Drinking.
          Accusing AA of being the reason people bing drink is hilarious, but, more so, irresponsible. Where do people find the time to come up with this crap?

          1. Massive hates A.A. because her ex-husband went to A.A., got sober, and then dumped her.

            There are many folks who are making money from the treatment center industry, so they hate A.A. Radical atheists also love to get snarky with and debate/argue with those of faith. They couldn’t seem to connect with the notion that we have all we need in this world and that we don’t have to be victims anymore and can tap into a source of Power that we can live our lives by.

            This is not to bash all atheists, as this is why I call a select majority the “radical” atheist. The hard-core to the bone atheist can take the concept of “God”, and just add an “O” to it, and call it GOOD.

            It’s your coffee-shop atheist that is a whiney smelly hippee greeney type that has nothing better to do than rip on an anonymous an altruistic movement such as A.A.

            Their latest fad is to go through all of the some 1.95+ million sober alcoholics and the not so sober members of that fellowship and to try to dig out and scrounge every news article and indident of murder, rape, child molestation, etc. and try to pin it on the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Don’t believe me? Go check out the site DoneWithAA and draw your own conclusions.

          2. we can hate or dislike AA all we want. Who are you to say that we cant feel the way we do about a “program” that hides rapists and violent offenders! You act like AA is your lover and we are sleeping with it. Grow up! AA has become a cesspool for 13 steppers, controlling abusive sponsors and sex offenders and our culture is tired of a wacky 1939 unchanged modality. Millions have been forced to the AA religion because of AA run drug courts who think they know it all. WHen the massive lawsuit hits we were see who is so high and mighty!

          3. macowdog. Are you my ex husband? How do you know this?

            Truth be told I was in the CUlt 6 years when I met him and he followed me there. He never fully drank the Kool aid …lucky him. He left lucky for him long before I did. Im sorry I ever turned anyone on to AA now. I think AA is an embarrassment.

          4. A.A. run drug courts? Why on earth would A.A. want to run the courts? To suck down more one-dollar bills and dispense more coffee, rent more church basements, and spend more money making sobriety chips?

            Wow! Maybe the Mexican Cartels will become envious!

            I think that molestation, rape, abuse of any form, exploitation of a vulnerable person’s financial resources, etc., is a horrible thing.

            I just don’t agree with you quacks that say that A.A. is a place that would encourage any of that. I think the proven manipulation and abuse of power seen in the Catholic church, public school system, the work place, within the radical Muslim religion, etc. is awful. Someone ought to do something to put a stop to all of this. In the meantime, I’ve not been raped, molested, abused verbally nor physically, ripped off etc. in or around A.A. nor do I see any of this going on.

            Go ahead and surge forward with your lobby to bring the horrible organization that is Alcoholics Anonymous to its knees. Tear it down and make it go away.

            I don’t think it will affect me nor my group a bit. We still have an A.A. book, a coffee pot, a church basement, and a handful of folks who want to get and stay sober and improve our lives from the inside out and to be helpful in our community and happy in our respective homes, workplaces, etc.

            The only thing different is that the extra money we take in from what we spent on our coffee, tea, etc. will all go to the church with which we rent a room from once per week.

            I don’t know how you did A.A. for 30-some years but I think you did it wrong. I think you want to blame the place and perhaps you and your circle of folks did some messed up stuff.

            For you to speak of the whole fellowship as if you know is where I jump off. Y’all are victims and that’s too bad. I hope you find peace some day. I doubt A.A. is going anywhere, but like you say, we’ll see.

          5. AA is a disgusting place and I would NEVER sens any of my family there Ever. There are lovely choices like SMART recovery, SOS, HARM REDUCTION, LifeRING, and Moderation Management.

            Sorry to say you are living in the dark ages. Either Alcohol problems are A health issue, or a mental health isues. Its not a f**king spiritual Malady…..like WTF is that. More Made up bS Bill Wilson crapola.

          6. Massive, frankly, it’s not your job to send anybody anywhere anyway. The courts offer alternatives.

            Our poor little innocent children have been given a taste of A.A. some are too young and either won’t do it and some don’t need it.

            Some like it so well that they’ve formed their own groups and they take care of and watch their own. The Young People in A.A. in my town are doing mighty fine, they don’t get raped and they are not victims.

            Hey, the spiritual malady and recovery thereof works great for me. If y’all find something better, do it. A.A. is not nor was it ever a popularity contest.

            1. well mcdowdog in reference to your comment ” Massive, frankly, it’s not your job to send anybody anywhere anyway.” but it is your job right ? recruiting is an AA step you do religiously isnt it ? ya might wana choose one or the other ignorance or hypocrisy but not both.

            2. Frankly Luannerene, that’s none of your biz neither. How I violate A.A.s traditions is my right and my prerogative.

              A bunch of anti/ex-A.A.ers started this whole mess. I used to post at the recovery forum SoberRecovery then it was brought to my attention that some folks at one “Stinkin Thinkin” site were mocking our posts on their blog. Some of the names;

              MA, FriendTheGirl aka iLse, Deconstructor, Gunthar2000, SoberPJ or PJ, Massive, AnnaZed, Speedy, H, mikeblamedenial, SRbanned, antidenial, Monica… oh, that’s Massive, etc.

              They set us up as some kind of example of crazy AAers solely for the purpose of ridicule and to further their points against the 12 step recovery industry.

              So it doesn’t matter whether I or anybody else who is pro-A.A. represents A.A. or not. Y’all will tag us with that distinction. So be it. To what end? To show that A.A. is totally bad and a dangerous and useless cult for all? Go for it.

              I see iLse is working with Stanton Peele now. Great. I hope they can finally get A.A. shut down and have a superior recovery program installed that supports Obamacare and will take Visa, Mastercard, Discover, etc.

              I started my blog because it became the antiAAers Ex-Steppers from Stinkin Thinkin and elsewhere got a foothold at Sober Recovery and soon after I and about 7 of my fellow A.A.ers got banned, so I started my own blog so I couldn’t get banned and have a place to hang my/our hat.

              Now you were saying something about my ignorance and hypocrisy?

              Oh btw, sober 10+ years in A.A. and still going to my one meeting per week. I haven’t seen any rapes, stabbings, deaths due to AAers playing doctor, nor robberies. Sorry I have nothing juicy to report on that front. Will try harder in the future.

              Oh, and could someone please give me a list of AA-Hate meetings. I still can’t find one and would love to attend. I may even have something or two to share.
              -McGowdog

  4. I can appreciate your passion/intensity on this subject, Matt. And I want to restate that I think it’s great that you’re able to utilize 12-step facilitation/philosophy toward sustainable recovery. But, it is the truth that 12-step facilitation/AA is not a good fit for everyone. It’s important to stress that there really isn’t a method of approach that exists, to date, that can claim that it is a good fit for ‘everyone’, or even everyone who ‘tries’ it. And with all due respect, the reason AA/12 step isn’t a good fit for 100% of the people that engage it as a potential support simply cannot be reduced to the commonly used, one-dimensional explanation of “They ‘failed’ because they didn’t follow the steps/suggestions”.
    For the record: “Failed” is not a term we should even be using in discussing addiction as it applies to others change/recovery process-and hopefully we don’t use it in reference to ourselves either. The term “failure”, as used in association/description of, or in reference to anyone’s’ efforts in recovery/change, drags with it stigma. We need to avoid using words, terms and phrases that serve to risk increasing anxiety, decreasing ones sense of self-efficacy, depleting hope reserves and, just, all around marginalizing individuals and their earnest efforts. And it’s the individual, alone, who has the right to measure the extent of their own efforts…We are incapable of accurately quantifying the depth and breadth of another’s dedication or level of effort invested regarding recovery goals/the change process…because we are them/we are not living their individual experience. There are a lot of buzz words used in the recovery community like, denial, enabler -even ‘addict’, in many applications- that just need to be put to pasture, by us all, because these words have, over time, developed a greasy film of disrespect and judgment (even when this is not the intent) that prevents them from serving recovery-purposed discussion…But I digress:0).
    Anyway… The reasons that methods of support/treatment don’t ultimately serve to engage a person are as complex and diverse as the individual themselves…And that is precisely why there have come to be multiple methodologies researched, developed, practiced and utilized. Menu of evidence-based options – It’s a good, good thing! :0)
    The commonly offered explanation so often given in defense of 12 step facilitation by those who are passionately convinced of its merits regarding the often reported, “It (meaning AA) has not been effective for me.” is mostly utilized because individuals, and especially organized groups, who support/back a particular mission or product just don’t find it all that comfortable acknowledging that something ‘they’ themselves are invested in/ are passionate about as being ineffective for others. It’s more supportive of others to say something like, “I’m aware that AA doesn’t work for everyone. It would be great if it did. But, at the end of day, people just need to keep trying something until the something they try serves them in reaching their goal”. It’s probably a lot more helpful and respectful to others to skip that whole inference of “you/those people “failed” because you/those people didn’t do as they were told/supposed to do”. And, by the way… It’s the individual who has the right and the capacity to measure the extent of their own efforts…We are incapable of accurately quantifying the depth and breadth of another’s ‘level’ of effort toward recovery goals/change process…because we are not them.
    And, honestly, Matt….that is how that worn out explanation comes across to plenty of people. It’s taken as offense and insult to people working hard to figure things out and make changes that will result in better lived moments. And that’s just one common example as to why quite a lot of people report that they don’t feel especially motivated to even try 12-step facilitation/AA. They hear this commonly used remark from subscribers/participants of the program that usually sound something like ” Oh yeh…well…It didn’t work for those people because they didn’t follow the suggestions!” And that spirit/energy off-puts people before they can even get to the parking lot of their local AA chapter. It goes something like this, “Gee…I don’t want to fail or be called a failure. What if I can’t follow it ‘exactly’ as suggested? What if I have a setback/relapse? I’ll lose everything I’ve accomplished. My ‘sobriety date’ is what communicates to my peers how ‘successful’ I am. I’m not confident I can measure up to that expectation. So, maybe I’ll just skip that particular resource and move on down the line to something else.”
    It’s getting better, little by little…But we all recognized that people with substance use disorders and other mental health challenges are already being judged and marginalized by society…So they certainly are not helped in perceiving that potential peers are judging them before they even have a chance to take a look at the program.

    “I could care less how people get sober”. Really? Well…It’s my take that you don’t seem like someone (at least based on what you’ve shared in this forum) who would be absent care or caring about others journeys in addiction/recovery. And… just want to offer some feedback on your take that equates Alcoholics Anonymous Leads to Increased Binge Drinking to “bashing AA”. I don’t happen to have a problem with the comment that “Alcoholics Anonymous Leads to Binge Drinking”. I didn’t say that I agreed or disagreed…I said that I don’t have ‘a problem’ with it. Frankly, I don’t see anything,(so far at least ;0), written by Mr. Slate, that moves me to angst. I only need read one sentence to get a sense of Steve’s intent …And that comes from his response to you “give yourself credit” for your choices. It’s only a suggestion…but I think maybe that’s something you might want to really take the time to re-read.
    Mr. Slate has a right to his views. He’s consistently level in his approach, if ya ask me. And, though I don’t know what kind of personal experience he’s had with AA… I can say that I do indeed echo his views regarding ‘self-fulfilling prophecy’. What we believe/perceive about our abilities/our journey, however it is we come to believe/perceive it, for better or worse tends to be what we will get.
    Clearly, you have worked hard. ‘You’ have identified your reasons for making and sustaining these healthy changes. And that accounts for the very foundation that your increasing peace/health is built on. Once we identify the ‘why’…we tend to be better equipped and have more resilience in getting to the ‘how’ and ‘what next’. Some people choose to do this processing on their own (it takes as long as it takes) and some people choose to engage external support(s) (it takes as long as it takes with this approach too). I don’t think this site is ‘atrocious’ in any sense. The information contained on the site is well written and also includes references regarding sources/empirical data. And, too?…It provided you with a place to voice your opinions and share your views. And that’s hardly a negative. Continued health and increasing peace to you, Matt.

    1. PJ,
      I definitely appreciate for responses, and I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. I am sorry, what I was trying to say is HOW people get sober is no concern to me, as long as they get sober and stay sober!!! There are many programs out there that are very successful, and that is is great. And like you said, the one that works for me is AA, and that is great too. I have been to different types of recovery group meetings and the place where I feel most comfortable is AA, but I do not have one negative thing to say about any of them! I saw benefits at each different one. The problem that I have is it SEEMS like this site is focused more on debunking theories and stating that everything is a fallacy with all these stats by a person who is NOT a doctor or scientist, then the SOLUTION-trying to help people get sober! And I find his bio to be very contradictory, talking about his views on helping and not bashing, but again, TO ME it SEEMS like all I see is bashing and not much focus on a solution.

      1. I totally appreciate your focus, Matt. It’ my personal view that what ‘one’ might perceive as unhelpful, negative ‘attacking’, “another” might utilize as opportunity to ‘add to their’ scope on subject matter. Even though it’s usually done out of very supportive desire to steer others toward something we assume should be/will be good for them; We need to have in mind that people are best served, overall, by being exposed to a variety of information, from multiple sources, from a variety of folks, so that “they” can choose how they will use the information. A t the very least, the empirical data presented on this site motivates,(or ‘should’ serve to motivate) readers to do ‘their own’ research (from MULTIPLE sources) regarding the statistics and other data he offers, toward their own solutions for their own circumstances. That can help but ‘add to’ rather than take-away- from our journey/our growth process. The more information we take in (from multiple sources) the better for us as individuals as well as collective humanity in terms of best-practices, growing sense of self efficacy and community health.

        I appreciate your perspective and your experiences. I have a ‘sense’ of confidence about your, and your family’s bright, healthy future. Your wife and children are fortunate to have your passionate spirit, dedication and energy! Your an example of the hope that we should all have for ourselves and others. Keep on keepin’ on…and take good care of you ;0) Warm regards…PJ

        1. PJ,
          Again, I completely agree with your comments and I thank you. You talk a lot about giving people multiple sources to choose from (which is great), but a title that states that going to AA is going to cause you to drink more and/or worse then you ever did before doesn’t create open-mindedness. If I was new to recovery and saw this site, I would run so far away from an AA meeting!!!! SO HAPPY that is not the case because I would not be typing this comment today, I would be DEAD!!!

      2. Matt,

        There is a giant lie out there called “the disease concept of addiction.” It is misinformation and thus harmful. It convinces people to attribute their problems to a (false) stable, thus unchangeable cause. This then creates an expectancy of failure – a lifelong struggle with a boogie-monster (managing the disease, avoiding triggers, etc). This site exists to expose that boogie-monster as an illusion. It also exists to offer counterpoint to anyone who keeps the sham going. 12-step programs definitely fit into that category. Everything we know from solid research on attribution and expectancy is at total odds with any approach that teaches people to see themselves as powerless and diseased in regard to personal behavior.

        Furthermore, my mission is to show people that their problems are due to variable, thus changeable, and internal causes. This creates an expectancy of success, provides a reason to try to change, and thus begets success.

        The program I teach, which has a 62% long term abstinence rate, is based on some of these same ideas I discuss on the site – and it doesn’t require attendance of any support group meetings, aftercare, or any other lifelong recovery plan. We teach people that they’re capable of personal change, we show them how to do it, and send them on their way – never to be dependent on anyone or anything else other than themselves for continued success.

        Your choice to go to AA is your own, and frankly, you shouldn’t give two u-know-whats what I think about it – follow your own heart. But I cannot and will not stand idly by while people enter the treatment system to be taught harmful counterproductive lies, and told that 12-step disease based approaches are the be-all-end-all. They are not. They are certainly statistically no more effective than no-help, and they have some nasty side effects which cause unneeded harm in people’s lives.

        -Steven

        1. For record: I favor cognitive behavioral approaches, such as Motivational Interviewing/ REBT etc., Clinical setting/group applied/individually practiced – makes me no never mind. It’s up to the individual to figure out what application works best for their circumstances. “what ultimately works best for our individual challenge’ is going to be most effectively supported by keeping ourselves informed on evolving scientific data. And as importantly, for the majority of people it’s a big help when our change process is supported/encouraged by loved ones and friends.

          1. PJ,
            Saying that AA is a sham or that we are spreading lies in meetings is not bashing???? Just asking!

        2. And I cannot sit idly by and listen to a man who bashes 12 step recovery! That is my sole purpose for reading and commenting on this site! You clearly state that you did not create this to bash, but yet again you just did! AA has been around for over 75 years and has worked for MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people! Why bash that???? And I can not understand a person with no medical background to say these things when addiction has already been PROVEN TO BE A DISEASE by the AMA!!! So, now doctors are liars??? Change your bio, Steve!!! Your lying to yourself and everyone who enters this site!!!!

          1. Matt…I gotta be honest and just say that I’m not the kind of person that stays inspired to share communication with folks who come across as though they are ‘heated’/angry. In addition…I don’t much respect folks who, no matter how much knowledge they have to share on a subject, deliberately hagride another. The reason is… once that crap is interjected into communications; it becomes very difficult to have constructive/productive discussion/debate- about anything really.
            Although I’m really glad we have these kinds of forums in terms of expanding our ability to connect/share with our ‘fellow man’ ;0) Unfortunately, the downside of sharing communications via written word, in cyberspace, -especially with folks you have not established personal rapport with- is that it’s real difficult to completely discern intent/agenda because the communications are minus facial expression, voice and body cues.
            I do want to respond to your question though on subject of ‘bashing’. I, personally, don’t think it’s productive, at all, in circumstances such as this (meaning the pursuit/goal of developing a helpful consensus/middle ground) for ‘anyone’ to use inflammatory, accusatory language, such as “boogie monster’, calling individuals ‘liars’, calling groups of people liars, or in some other way inferring that others have malicious/malevolent intent. We don’t exactly raise the odds that others will come to agree with our points of view if our ‘style’ is to come across as though we are unwilling to listen to a point of view other than our own.
            It’s sort of ironic….We can be real skilled in terms of our wealth of knowledge about a subject, but when we come across like an ass…nobody is ‘gonna wanna’ listen to a thing we say. What have we truly accomplished, then?
            I mean, if the true motivation is to have a ‘meeting of the minds’, it becomes pretty obvious that when people are going out of their way to provoke or pique another, for the sheer purpose of disturbing their state of mind, then, any targeted discussion established on foundation of mutual respect is soooooo not likely to occur;0). When we reduce ourselves to that kind of stuff we are not doing anything but catering to our own ego. In this, we create problems…We don’t solve them…Despite what we might want to think of as our ‘purest’ intent of bringing enlightenment/protection to the masses.
            Matt…. I encourage you not to ‘throw baby out with the bath water’ regarding this site. Please check into cognitive behaviorally based approaches to recovery. One example is SMART recovery. Programs like these are giving people evidence-based helpful options to choose from. Self management and recovery training welcomes folks to integrate 12 step with their approach, if they find it helpful to their process. They don’t knock 12 step. They just desire to provide people with choices
            Lastly…There is valid, relevant information contained here on this site developed by Steve Slate. Regardless of the infrequent approach in communicating that lacks some needed decorum, I will recommend this site to others in hope they can add some good info to their journey.
            Continued success and health to you in your journey…PJ

          2. Matt, I think we have different concepts of the term “bash.” To me, it holds an extremely negative connotation, and implies malicious intent, a focus on the irrelevant but seedy, and often an element of personal attack – more like mudslinging.

            I see my points in the above article as honest criticism. If criticism = bashing, then I guess I’m guilty. But if that’s true, then the term ‘bashing’ has lost all meaning for me, and is useless. If you’d like to see true AA bashing, please visit stinkin-thinkin.com, and peruse the comments section on any blog post there. You might re-evaluate your accusations about my site after that. If my goal was to hurt AA, I’d do much better by spreading the sort of information that exists on that site. That is, if I wanted to sling mud, and have my site “exist to bash aa”, then the site would look far different than it does now.

            I’ve restated it several times in several ways, so maybe I’m beating a dead horse here but anyways: I’m targeting the disease concept and any teaching which convinces people they are not in control of their behavior. Look over the site, and you will know that those ideas are my target, not AA itself.

            PJ – I’ve quite enjoyed your contributions to the discussion. When I used the terms “boogie monster”, “sham”, and “lie” in my comments above, I meant them in direct reference to the disease concept, and not in reference to 12-step organizations. I don’t think 12-steppers are bad people, and I don’t think that most people who push the disease concept mean any harm whatsoever. I think they sincerely believe it, and think it’s helpful. But I disagree vehemently, and don’t find it necessary to hide my disagreement because some may find it offensive. The disease concept and all that comes with it, is wrong. It’s not supported by facts. The notion that addiction is a disease was an arbitrary assertion, which people have tried to prove scientifically after the fact – and they have failed at proving it.

            Ultimately, many people accept the disease concept because it helps us explain a very uncomfortable fact: in the midst of rampant substance use (or any other troubling behavior), people are doing what they believe will make them happiest (it really is that simple). An outsider judges the addictive activity as definitely not worth the price – then assumes that their judgment is so objectively obvious that no one would choose to continue such behavior if they had a choice (that is, they wouldn’t pay the price for the addiction if they truly had a choice) – and then jumps to the conclusion that there must be a mental illness and loss of control involved.

            The true solution is for the ‘addicted’ person to expand their awareness of their range of options or potential alternative choices, and investigate those options. Upon doing so, they may end up believing that the addiction is not their best choice, and that they are capable of finding more happiness elsewhere.

            If they don’t get dragged down by the disease rhetoric and some other problems with 12-step programs – then this is exactly what successful steppers do. They end up believing that the 12-step lifestyle, or a spiritual lifestyle, or just spending time with sober friends, can offer them greater happiness than their addiction did – and voila, they choose to end the addiction. That’s fine and dandy, but it’s not everyone’s cup of tea – actually, most people find that the recovery lifestyle is not their cup of tea. But chasing down the activities and lifestyle that makes you happiest is everyone’s cup of tea. What I’m getting at, is that the 12-steps offer one specific defined path of happiness that doesn’t appeal to everyone – but the wider principle of building a life which is more satisfying than the habit is what we should be focused on – instead of telling people that they must adhere to the 12-steps – as well as telling people that choice and purpose have nothing to do with addiction and that it’s a mysterious incurable disease which hijacks the free will.

            -Steven

          4. you might enjoy my blogtalkradio show called Safe Recovery where I expose the criminals atrocities going on in AA and educate people on the other options.

            AA is not a GOLDEN COW.

            AA is not a specialized religion that no one can touch and criticize.

            AA is Not a SECRET SOCIETY run by the government

            AA is not the CIA …untouchable….even they are under investigation.

            You are in a cult. I woke up after 34 years in it to see the truth and I am glad ….and I am free.

          5. we can hate or dislike AA all we want. Who are you to say that we cant feel the way we do about a “program” that hides rapists and violent offenders! You act like AA is your lover and we are sleeping with it. Grow up! AA has become a cesspool for 13 steppers, controlling abusive sponsors and sex offenders and our culture is tired of a wacky 1939 unchanged modality. Millions have been forced to the AA religion because of AA run drug courts who think they know it all. WHen the massive lawsuit hits we were see who is so high and mighty!

        3. What an incredibly intelligent human being you are. You are right, it’s a choice. Just like the rats that choose to die waiting to receive more cocaine water. They stop eating and caring for young. I apologize for not listing a source but i felt I’d keep with your theme of selectively choosing which studies to follow. I do agree that there must be more than AA especially when you are an atheist like myself. To say a person wouldn’t drink or use if they truly didn’t want to is to completely leave no answer for craving. Using. Then instantly feeling insane or suicidal from the effect of this drug that they supposedly truly want. Maybe you were never really an addict, just lazy. Not sure what your education is but just as in AA you are running with whatever data fits your agenda. And if you believe in will power you have a simple grasp of the subconscious. If you choose to post a comment I will have the time to quote from several medical texts and I will supply all reference info. Better yet I invite you to come live with me and interview my family. If you can cure me I’ll freely be your poster boy and happily spend my days and nights handing out packets of info. on your discovery to medical offices, AA and research establishments.

          1. Hi Jason,

            I’m not interested in how we can manipulate the behavior of creatures that lack the same brain power as humans. A rat is not a person.

            I can’t cure you of your substance use problems because they are not a disease, they are choices you make as a result of what you freely choose to think. Although, I would like to convince you of one important thing: you can think differently about the value of substances and why you use substances, if you want to. Once you believe you can’t choose though, you are less likely to make a long term change in this behavior.

            I don’t think willpower is an issue, and in fact, as I have probably written on this site before, I think “willpower” is a messy concept. What I mean is that I don’t think “alcoholics” and “addicts” are weak (lacking willpower) at all. On the contrary, from what I’ve seen, heard, and experienced, they display great strength in carrying out their “will.” As an example, I would cite my own behavior, when I would spend all day walking to the mall to shoplift something, then walking to the bodega in the city to sell it, then walking to the drug dealer to finally get drugs. I don’t think I need to list all of the obstacles that stood in my way of procuring and using more drugs, but there were many. It would’ve been much easier to stay home and detoxify, but I really wanted that heroin and cocaine. I persevered and overcame all of the obstacles in my way in order to carry out my will (getting high on cocaine and heroin).

            I felt powerless, and I felt like I “needed” to be high. I felt out of control, and it was a horrific experience. But I wasn’t really powerless. This experience came from the ingrained belief that being high on drugs was the best possible feeling available to me. How one arrives at that belief is a complex matter, and varies with each individual, but in principle, it is built upon a few common things. It has to do with your knowledge of what’s available to you in the way of happiness (do you think there are better things out there?); what you think you’re capable of achieving (maybe you think and even know there are better ways of life out there, but don’t think you are personally capable of living them); how much effort you’re willing to expend to work at achieving happiness in other ways (i.e. your willingness to pursue delayed gratification over immediate gratification); and I’m sure there are other factors too, but those are the main/most common ones involved that conspire to forge the deep desire for repetitious heavy substance use.

            When I ditched the disease concept (which had consciously divorced my substance use from any sense of purpose), and returned to what I had originally known before my “recovery” odyssey – that I used drugs because they provided me with some sort of happiness – I was finally able to go through a full cognitive evaluation where I could look to see if I might be able to find greater happiness with another lifestyle of some kind. I ended up believing that more happiness was available to me without drugs, I believed I was capable, and I committed to do the work to prove it to myself.

            Eventually, I changed my will (or “wants”), and I haven’t felt powerless or had a problem with drug and alcohol use since then. You can too, and likely will. I advise against believing in literal powerlessness, loss of control, and the disease concept of addiction, because it will only slow down (or completely stop) your process of changing your will (and thus your behavior).

            I wish you the best.

            -Steven

  5. Steven…I’m appreciative of your clarification regarding use of ‘boogie monster’, ‘lie’ etc..that addresses that it not intended as personal attack on people. I think I have better scope on how you meant it, now. I don’t espouse ‘disease concept’…but I get why some people do. I also think that a personal narrative of “my addiction is a lifelong illness that I can never hope to free of” carries some potentially significant psychological risk for many people, (not all people), – that it can equate to some version of ‘learned helplessness’ and lack of belief in self to be able to problem solve and cope with challenges.

    “But chasing down the activities and lifestyle that makes you happiest is everyone’s cup of tea. What I’m getting at, is that the 12-steps offer one specific defined path of happiness that doesn’t appeal to everyone – but the wider principle of building a life which is more satisfying than the habit is what we should be focused on – instead of telling people that they must adhere to the 12-steps – as well as telling people that choice and purpose have nothing to do with addiction and that it’s a mysterious incurable disease which hijacks the free will.”

    Hear hear… What I get from this is you’re urging and encouraging that we raise our awareness and place the focus on a healthy balance. If I got that right, it certainly makes real good sense to me… and no doubt to many, many others too:0)

    A ‘cup of tea’ now, I think…Hmmm..I’m wondering why…I suddenly got the urge for Chai:0)

    Very best to you both! Patti

  6. PJ,

    Again, it is amazing reading your posts!!!! I hope to God you are some how affiliated in the recovery process, if not, then you need to be!!! You have such a humbling and open-minded message, what is exactly what people need!!! You have definitely made me check myself, which is exactly what I need!!! I had an extremely bad addiction to alcohol and to-let’s just say-any prescribed drug (the list would be to long to get into it!!!), and I did attend a cognitive behavioral rehabilitation program. The 30 day “vacation” was my first step to recovery, but I couldn’t stay there forever!!! They did expose us to many different programs and conversations about the topic. Before rehab, I had tried everything possible to stay AWAY from those RELIGIOUS, CULT meetings or as Steven calls it dungeons!!! I saw doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, and homeopathic doctors just so I didn’t have to sit with THOSE people!!! Talk about closed-minded!!!! I am sooooo glad I was some how convinced to return to those rooms!!! People definitely do need balance!!! All I have everyday to live my life is 24 hours, and spending 1 hour a day (out of 24) focused on my sobriety keeps me balanced!!! I don’t think that is such a bad thing!!! Right????

    Steven,
    I appreciate your post, but i just wish that you would carefully choose your words before you post them!!! I am not going to tell you how to run your site, but I have read a TREMENDOUS amount of your posts, and although not all are offensive, but many are! I don’t now how else to say that this offends me!! You said:
    “And here you come along, giving my readers a beautiful example of the brainwashing and self-defeating nonsense that happens in AA,”
    Maybe we do have different definitions of bashing, but I don’t know what else to call that!!! I just think that you would be much more successful talking about (yet again) the solution rather than is it a disease or a choice!! Who gives a crap??? Addiction is definitely a problem, whatever it may be!!! Now, what do we do about that??? All I know about the debate are my own personal experiences and if I pick up again, it would be the last thing I do!!!!

    Matt

    1. Matt,

      On the first night that you commented on my site, I was going to abstain from responding, and just let you vent without challenge. But by the 4th comment, you triggered me, and I lost control over my disease of argumentism. Here’s how you triggered me in your first 4 comments:

      First, you played the “not a real addict” card several times, and I quote:

      1. I am guessing that people from this site have NEVER HAD THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION, because they would never post ridiculous information like this!!!!

      2. I know for a fact that you have never had an addiction problem!!!

      3. Well, if you have a problem with substance use, AA is not going to work for you! I went from substance use, to substance abuse, to addiction, and there is a HUGE difference and I did not have a choice!!

      4. There is no possible way you could understand the addict brain, unless you have one!!!

      You also personally attacked me several times, referring to my site and writings with the following adjectives- absurd, atrocious, ridiculous. Then you went on to play the “you’re killing people” card:

      You should not say some of the things on this site because THIS is dangerous to people with the disease of addiction.

      I responded, not by attacking you, but by asking a simple question about the logic of what you were saying. You stated several times that you didn’t choose to harm your family (because you didn’t choose your addict behavior – the disease caused it) – then you suggested that you made amends to your family. I asked why you would make amends for behavior you didn’t choose. You never answered the question – you only spouted something about insanity and step 2 – and the recovery folklore of THIQs. And that brings me to why I said you served as an example of recovery brainwashing. Your answer made no sense, and the mention of THIQs is just so far outside of what any addiction researchers are saying today – it’s a legend that only lives within AA and Minnesota Model rehabs. It’s nothing that anyone who keeps up with current disease propaganda would ever bring up, because it’s long discredited.

      I might also mention that as an example of brainwashing, your first 4 comments contained these hardline disease belief and “AA is the only way” type of statements:

      I certainly have a FATAL disease and my treatment is AA. If I do not work my program to the fullest, I will not survive!

      AA is hard work, but if a person works the program to the fullest, they will not fail!!! I have seen many people in the program fail, but they were not doing everything suggested to them!

      In order to stay sober, AA members need to work their program as suggested in the Big Book! If there is deviation to this, they will not stay sober and their addiction will KILL THEM!!!–BOTTOM LINE!!!

      I will carry this disease for the rest of my life, and if I choose not to treat it, I will ended up right back where I was before and/or dead!!!

      They have convinced you that you are powerless, and that if you ever touch a substance again, or fail to work the steps, or cease “treating” your disease that you will uncontrollably consume enough substances to kill yourself. The dangers of teaching someone that kind of thinking is EXACTLY what this post is about. This is why I said: “And here you come along, giving my readers a beautiful example of the brainwashing and self-defeating nonsense that happens in AA.”

      Given the insults you hurled my way, your dodging of the question, playing of the “real addict” card, and the literal example of the exact phenomenon of teaching self-defeating beliefs in the recovery culture that you provided through your first 4 comments on my site – I feel no guilt whatsoever for making that comment. What’s more, later comments you made even heightened the example.

      Beyond that, I find it fascinating that you can suggest that only “real addicts” can understand and comment on addiction, and simultaneously, only doctors can comment on addiction. You present the kind of no-win double-talk scenarios so common in the recovery culture. WHO is allowed to comment on addiction? Who is allowed to understand it, in your world? ARE YOU A DOCTOR? If not, then does that mean my readers should dismiss your views out of hand? Do you understand how absurd and ridiculous you are to play the “you’re not a doctor” card while simultaneously suggesting making the atrocious claim that “my treatment is AA.” AA is nowhere near medical, treatment, or run by doctors – it is a mutual support group, and should never be granted the instant credibility accompanied by the term “treatment.”

      I was homeless, jailed, and got into all sorts of trouble with substance use. I also was brainwashed into believing I couldn’t stop, and I continued to get worse with that stupid belief and all the treatment in the world. I quit heroin and cocaine ten years ago, and importantly, I quit thinking of myself as powerless and fragile and broken 10 years ago – and I haven’t had problems with drugs or alcohol since then. I don’t go to meetings, counseling, treatment, or follow any religious belief, or take any anti-addiction drugs – I just moved on and live my life. I no longer “crave” (as I did when I was involved in the recovery culture), I do not believe in powerlessness, and guess what – I occasionally drink! And it doesn’t trigger me to shoot heroin!

      Of course, now I know what you’ll say – that I’m not a “real addict.” I’ve seen your talking points about 10,000,000,000 times.

      -Steven

      1. AGAIN, if you are trying to keep people out of the AA rooms and not focus on the solution, the you are doing a damn good job of it!!!! I apologize if I have offended you! To answer your question:

        Why would you make amends for behavior that you did not choose?
        I am not an AA guru! I am not a Big Book Thumper! I based a lot of what I know by what I have done and learned from that. I know that when I consume drugs and alcohol, I am a different person. A person that can NEVER get enough. I did know physical harm to my family. I apologized to my family because on countless occasions my 2 small children had to watch there daddy have seizure after seizure, and see there daddy spend Christmas and New Years in the hospital. After listening to doctors tell me I was going to die, the very day I got out of the hospital each time, what did I do? I drank and used some more. That doesn’t seem to sane to me now that I can think clearly. They had to listen to their daddy yell at them over nothing because he was out off drugs and withdrawing! Drugs and alcohol ALWAYS came first, and I love my children more than anything on this planet! Why would I choose drugs and alcohol over my children? My wife said she would kick me out if I didn’t stop! What did I do? I continued to drink and use! What happened? I got kicked out! Why would I choose to leave my house, my beautiful wife, my beautiful children? I moved in with my enabling mom. She got so sick of me drinking all of her NyQuil, mouthwash, and ingesting entire bottles of melaton, that my own unconditional loving mother threatened to kick me out! Ok, mom I will stop! What happened? I continued to drink and use! What happened? I got kicked out! MY own mother! This isn’t even half of my battle! Does this seen sane or normal to you, Steve? Who drinks mouthwash to get drunk? Really? I had absolutely no control over drugs and alcohol! And I wasn’t about to say I was powerless over anything! As you can tell, I am stubborn and I am a fighter! I wasn’t about to go sit in those rooms and lose this fight! I can do this myself, dammit! I made promise after promise after promise to stop! What happened? Got loaded again and had another seizure in my car where I was living in the dead cold middle of January! Luckily, someone found me hunched over my back seat with my legs dangling out of the car! And, so again I go to the hospital, this time on my oldest sons 7th birthday! Let’s see! Did I choose to go to the hospital over my son’s 7th birthday??? I did not choose to be an alcoholic and drug addict, but it chose me! Why would I choose do these things to my children? Who else is going to take responsibility for all of these actions??? Of course, I am going to apologize for what took place!!!!
        You continuously say that people shouldn’t have to live their lives powerless! Who is living life powerless? I conceited to drugs and alcohol, but that is it! Yea, drugs and alcohol won the battle! That was hard for me to swallow, but there was no brainwashing necessary for this guy! Based on my OWN experiences I already knew before I entered AA that I could never drink or use again! I did have a choice on whether I wanted to live or die!
        I guess I didn’t feel like getting into detail about it on the fist night that you asked me! But all of that crap that I wrote = insanity for me! Hopefully, that was a little clearer for you!!!
        I don’t know why I am asking because I’m sure we will have the same result, but what is your take on genetic disposition?
        Matt

        1. Matt-

          The most alarming aspects of your replies is something I’ve seen from every person in AA: an overly emotional response. For a program that supposedly teaches serenity dozens of people I’ve dealt with in several 12 step programs, including the flagship AA, all seem to communicate verbally and in writing with an emotional overdrive that is more evocative of fear than any sense of calm. CBT teaches you to handle your emotions and guides you through the process of self-control. 12 steps teaches powerlessness and that you have no control. Judging by your emphatic almost addicted use of exclamation points and ridiculous multiple question marks, you are surely on the 12 step band wagon and exemplify the type of parroted, hysterical (not funny, just full of hysteria) responses most of the people I’ve encountered over the course of 18 years sussing out those programs.

          The 12 step support groups I attended fo three different types of behavioral problems were little more than placeboes for their members who are largely uninformed, anti-information and completely resistant to serious discussion about treatment. As Steve points out, AA does lie to its members who then carry that lie forward. They aren’t bad people per se, but they do bad things. One friend in AA is a security guard at the local hospital and requests time when he can watch people detoxing so he can ‘bring them the message of AA’. I find stuff like that not so much a chance for the detoxing patient to recover, but a cheap shot at an already vulnerable individual. I asked if he would recommend SOS or SMART and he said that’s for doctors to decide, he’s lving proof AA works. I think that mindset arrogant and damaging. Please respond using as many exclamation points and question marks as you can type.

          Ryan

          1. Ryan,

            I find it hysterical (yes, funny!!!) that you can judge my character by exclamation points and question marks. AGAIN, it is not my purpose to say that any recovery option is better than the next. I focus on the solution, and AGAIN, IN MY OPINION, this site focus on the negatives of other groups rather than the solution. That doesn’t help anyone. I did attend a CBT rehab, and they did give us many options of recovery, but I am not going to state that Celebrate Recovery is terrible because Jesus is the answer or Life Ring doesn’t work because they don’t have a Higher Power. We all find solutions to our problems our own way and I am happy that there are multiple programs that work for all walks of life. But, why put down a program intended to help people? That is what I don’t understand. AA is not the only answer to life’s problems, but that is what works for me to stay sober!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          2. I find it interesting (and a little sad too) when folks attempt to cope with/process their own emotionality by way of drawing attention to, and framing another’s response as overly emotional or ___(fill in the blank). Negative Projection: When we identify traits in others that we recognize in ourselves…and then we hyper-criticize them for it.

            Being conscious/aware about what is the core/the driving force fueling our decision to engage others in conversation/discussion/’debate’ is sorta important ;0) Talk about a playground for arrogance and damage?-When our central motivation is simply to be ‘right’, rather than to serve individual and collective well being, consensus and forward momentum. Consensus in the arena of addiction-related prevention, intervention, treatment, recovery is sorely needed. And we should be further along by now considering all we’ve learned about substance use disorder- especially in the last two or three decades. But that consensus continues to elude us as a culture…And so does recovery/health/well being for multitudes of people challenged by substance use disorder. I don’t think that’s a coincidence…

            I can’t help but wonder if this ‘lack of consensus’, which holds us all back, is the result of an absence of simple humanity/grace. This ‘lack of’ authentic spirit to support others in increasing their own self efficacy, by whatever means works for them, just seems to attach itself. Even at the mere mention of the word ‘addiction’ and/or ‘addict’ our emotionality surges.
            As individuals so many of us just seem to need, above all, to be ‘right’ rather than to authentically support/inform/encourage. We can disagree and still accomplish all of those things -That’s the sad bitch of it. Our nature to tend toward being rigid in our stated opinions, as well as critical, (and not constructively critical, but ‘destructively’ critical-and we all f’n know the difference between the two before we choose which to implement), is beyond misguided and unproductive…because addiction is beyond complex.

            *sigh*….It’s amazing to me how often the salient offerings of very astute individuals -offerings that are culturally/philosophically/academically relevant and ripe with potential to serve- are eclipsed by their inability to keep their inner toddler in check . Ryan -Please respond using as much ill-intended sarcasm as you can type:0)

          3. What’s with all this bickering back and forth? Really, does it matter what way a person finds recovery….as long as they find it? I go to AA, but I can think for myself. I don’t subscribe to the “disease” model and believe it’s a cop out . I cringe every time I hear someone say “my disease.” I like to think of my addiction as a disorder. Like, as in, I can’t use drugs/alcohol because I just can’t stop. Kind of like an eating disorder. Anyways, I try not to judge people and I worry about myself. It’s not a perfect program, but it has worked for many people. Why would one put down a program that tries to help people? My guess…..probably because it’s a free program. And, let’s be honest, there is plenty of money to be made in the alcohol/addiction industry.

          4. Refreshing comment Tom.

            I’m with you on all of that. It seems to me that the buck or two in the basket doesn’t jive with some folks ‘career plans and some folks cringe at the talk of a spiritual solution

  7. I was already evaluating what I wanted from life, and whether the 12 steps would take me there. Then, a guy with 30 years sober talked with me about his disease, and how it told him to blow all his money on a boat to go down to the Caribbean so he could properly shoot his brains out with a shotgun.

    He knew this was crazy. I knew this was crazy. He blamed this disease’s progressive nature. Meanwhile, people who *leave* the 12 Step groups with years of sobriety go on to have normal, happy, serene lives – I’ve seen it happen.

    Then I remember what got me sober – thinking about the consequences I had with drinking each time I thought about alcohol. I would think so deeply and thoroughly that I winced outwardly. I repeated this until I developed a Pavlovian response to the thought of drinking. The thoughts of drinking didn’t last very long.

    I stayed sober a full year before my sponsor was satisfied with my admission of powerlessness. After that, other parts of my life began falling apart in favor of this 12 step group.

    It wasn’t an admission of powerlessness, it was applying something I learned in Psych 101 classes in a community college that kept me sober. But I still gave credit to AA and NA, because pressure at home demanded that I “treat my disease” or face homelessness.

    1. My take: You were never powerless. If you had been, you certainly could not have come to the conclusion you did about your own patterns of thought and the resulting impact those thoughts had on your choices. You are, in fact, highly empowered! ‘Your’ efforts, based on ‘your’ conclusions, accomplished ‘your’ goal. Keep on keepin’ on…Continued health and well being to you!

  8. These statistics are fundamentally meaningless. Here’s why.
    Anybody who has been sober in AA then drinks to intoxication has just had a binge. That means anybody who has been in AA any length of time, remained sober then relapsed, has by any definition, “binged”.
    On the other hand, somebody who is doing CBT hasn’t necessarily stopped drinking. He may in fact be drinking exactly the same amount as before. Whether he is or has cut back somewhat he’s not binging, but neither is he sober, unlike the guy in AA.
    And for those who remain untreated, it’s quite likely, if they are alcoholics, that they are drinking every day rather than binging.
    So what does this information about binging indicate about the efficacy of any of the aforementioned treatment methods? Nada.

    1. Hi Brent,
      Your assertion that those in the CBT group haven’t stopped drinking is flat out wrong. In this study, the 12-step and CBT group had equal rates of abstinence (but I would posit that the CBT group actually had a higher abstinence rate since there were less dropouts {approximately 40% dropped out of CBT group, and 70% dropped out from AA group}. People often drop out because they’re choosing to continue to drink).

      I’m wondering – where did you learn your standards of what constitutes a binge and/or relapse? Any time someone chooses to drink to intoxication is considered a relapse? That’s EXACTLY the kind of dangerous self-defeating belief I’m talking about here.

      [Reminder: I don’t agree with the concept that relapse into a non-disease is actually possible – I’m only discussing relapse standards for argument’s sake.]

      1. Steve…Thanks for this. It makes me think. And in addition to being accurate…This is just real ‘sound’ reasoning:
        “In this study, the 12-step and CBT group had equal rates of abstinence (but I would posit that the CBT group actually had a higher abstinence rate since there were less dropouts {approximately 40% dropped out of CBT group, and 70% dropped out from AA group}. People often drop out because they’re choosing to continue to drink).”
        This is ‘sound’ reasoning, in addition to being accurate.

        I believe, more and more -based on what I am witnessing as the consistent growth in the numbers of people choosing to utilize supports/tools that are based on the frame of CBT, like MI, aka Motivational Interviewing (which is what Self Management and Recovery training (SMART Recovery) is based on), REBT (Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy), ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Training) ect,- that we will, in the collective journey, come to an intersection in our culture whereby it will become detrimental for programs/philosophies framed on 12-step facilitation ‘not’ to adapt – in order that membership in AA and Al Anon doesn’t slow to a halt, over time. That is where it is headed. Anyone that is compelled to act out in ‘defensive’ posturing about the merits of CBTs (or really any other methodology) are those that are choosing to be a part of the problem rather than the solution.

        Some times it’s evident why people/groups/organizations react defensively to the beliefs and opinions of others…and sometimes it’s not quite so clear. Ya know…Sometimes folks are just ‘not ready’ to think about or try something they see as different, or in some other way as deviating from what they are comfortable with. Being real clear here: ‘Status Quo’ and/or traditional approaches are not necessarily a bad thing for everyone, and every situation.

        But, we for sure are not gonna encourage new avenues of creative, self efficacy-building problem solving by causing others to feel less than/marginalized because of the opinions and beliefs they hold. Hell, we can argue, and we can even launch personal attacks against one another for the opinions/beliefs held…til the cows come home (lol…but do they ever really come home?;0)..But it won’t change the reality that people are becoming more cognizant of the importance to develop an increasing and individual sense of awareness regarding our ‘very’ individual patterns of cognition (those patterns of thought-what it is that creates our scope and our sense that we can deal effectively with all the ranges of challenges/traumas/hardships we experience and in tandem, on any given day, even when it all sucks, still reflect on our life as valuable and purpose-filled, our self as worthy, and the road ahead- even with all it’s uncertainties- as absolutely full of potential. Some people would call that personal faith…others would call it self efficacy. The cool thing is…they are both correct ;0)

        1. PJ,

          Thank you for your kind words! I continue to enjoy reading all of your posts on this website. I DO understand I was being closed-minded with my initial posts on this forum. You have definitely have opened my eyes on the subject, and that is hard for this stubborn ass to say.

          Matt

          1. Hi Matt,

            I hope you’re doing great. Thanks for your comment above…But, I want to counter your self description of “stubborn ass” ;0) with what I believe is a more accurate description of you, based on what I observe in your spirit: “you are a person in recovery making your way with courage and integrity, and choosing to share what you are learning with others’ for the purpose, and with the goal of encouraging them toward finding their path to recovery”. Lol…Yeh..I know..It’s not exactly concise. But, i really do believe it is accurate :0)

            I have had a particular interest in the study of societal stigma related to addiction, and the way it works to prevent recovery on an individual, community and global scale. I thought you might be interested in reading some on the subject, too. The link below is one of so many publications/studies on the subject of stigma..In the case you have not done much research in this area, this link is a really good place to start. It’s nutritious food for thought.

            I continue to be astounded- pretty much daily-at the examples of stigma-inducing terms/attitudes/cliches. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say, ” Well you know what they say in my peer support group: that ‘if my son’s (you know my son the ‘drug addict’) lips are movin’, then that means he’s lying to me”…well, I’d have a lot of friggin’ money:0)

            This little jewel of a saying above (that I was repeatedly exposed to in many a peer support group and even by clinicians) is just one example of the unconscionable BS that serves to perpetuate stigma and block recovery for multitudes of deserving people.

            No one should make the assumption and/or infer that someone challenged by a substance use disorder is incapable of honesty, or that because they are challenged by addiction then, clearly, they live to lie…or steal . This is but one of the many, many stigmatizing sentiments/cliches I encounter on a regular basis by folks who ‘profess’ to be supporters and advocates. When is it going to stop? Good grief…. If we can’t even trust ‘recovery professionals’ not to perpetuate stigma, then we are in a real pickle.

            Ya know…this is just one example of the labeling, stereotyping, and social rejection etc., with regard to people/groups/organizations who truly want to think of themselves as ‘advocates’ but, who, in reality, are part of the problem -playing a role as barrier to recovery rather than influencing recovery purposed attitudes and healthy change.

            Matt… I see you as someone who can boldly carry the message of ‘person first’/ ‘recovery-purposed’ language and dialoguing in your recovery fellowship circle(s) -reminding/encouraging those that you participate in peer fellowship with, that substance use disorder is not the product of a flaw in character, nor is it a deficit in moral or spiritual virtue…rather addiction is a product of maladaptive coping with substances in response to feelings of stress and/or negative emotion. Further…Addiction is not a life sentence. Recovery happens, all the time, for people. -people in treatment, people who have never chosen structured support/treatment…. and all klinds of folks in between. It’s up to the person to choose their path. Our most important role toward supporting others in recovery is to inspire those seeking it to engage their own sense of strength and empowerment in gaining it -what ever method they decide to choose.

            There are multiple paths to recovery. Any person or collective that implies directly or indirectly that ‘their way’ is ultimately the ‘only’ way to achieve recovery is part of the problem, not the solution.

            Matt ….Your restored health and well being,your efforts to encourage others,your sense of dedication to your family/your community are proof that the human spirit- regardless of the level of addiction challenge- can transform trauma into triumph. There is not a single human that can not hope to improve their circumstances/their health. I say, “When we can hope to, we then have the means to cope through”.

            Please pay close attention to the words/attitudes demonstrated by your recovery peers. Even people/organizations with righteous intent can inadvertently perpetuate stigma, and thus exclusion and shame…which then entraps the individual in a “why try” snare… which further limits access to our innate mechanism that governs and supports our sense of self esteem and self efficacy. Without self esteem and self efficacy, we are severely limited in reaching our goals in sustainable recovery.
            Note the operative word “self” in these terms. Self is not a ‘bad word’. It does not indicate a lack of humility, or an unchecked ‘ego’. So….Let us not confuse self with ‘selfish’ as it relates to recovery.

            It’s critical that we be able to rely on ‘self’, (and, of course the genuine-no agenda havin’ encouragement by others) in order to gain momentum in recovery. But we should all strive to maximize positive influence on anothers recovery by limiting ‘very specific’ advisement about how that recovery is pursued.

            People have an inborn ability to problem solve for themselves. But we don’t do so well with figuring out how to best problem solve and achieve that kind of change, if we look to others, or allow others to map out the specifics of what ‘must be’ a self-mapped journey.

            And now…back to ‘stigma’ ;0) : If there is not a willingness by us to even consider/evaluate they ways we might be inadvertently perpetuating addiction stigma in our choice of language and dialoguing about addiction, as well as those challenged by it …Then, how can we expect to gain consensus and momentum in terms of best practices on an individual,family, community and global scale?

            Continued health and successes to you and yours, Matt!

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2694098/

  9. Sorry…should learn to proof read before I hit ‘post comment’: “People have an inborn ability to problem solve for themselves. But we don’t do so well with figuring out how to best problem solve and achieve that kind of change, if we look to others, or allow others to map out the specifics of what ‘must be’ a self-mapped journey.” Should read : …”if we look to others ‘to’….or allow others to map out the specifics of what must be a self-mapped journey”. I just wanted to be clear that I was not suggesting that there is no help to be gained in looking to others for guidance and encouragement. But adding that we benefit by being discerning about who we look to for feedback/guidance and encouragement.

  10. AA and NA are ridiculous cults.
    My friends and I were treated to a horror show in rehab and were forced to go to meetings. It was an affront to Christianity and other religions. Mental abuse, lies, subterfuge, unethical family coercion, and cult indoctrination should not be used on medical patients. Addiction is a genetic and psychosocial condition, not a disease. We were scammed out of $1000 per day for 90 days of pure hell. Rehab, all rehab, is a scam, pure and simple. Quack medical treatments have been around for centuries, and the people who promote them rely on other people’s vulnerability to suck them into a scheme.
    When we returned home we were all much worse off psychologically. Some “cure.”
    Beware Las Vegas Recovery Center and other rehab clinics that rely on the 12 steps and NA/AA for cheap and easy “treatment” and staff. They routinely overkill patients and insurance companies, and that raises rates for everyone.
    13Apostates.com

    1. I just read the story on that website and wow! Hopefully you guys sued the crap out of that “treatment” center.

      1. Anyone who is not willing to get clean/sober shouldn’t be forced into a treatment center

        Especially one’s that are charging outrageous amounts for their treatment. My girlfriend’s family was swindled into sending her to rehab in NJ somewhere. The guy who came to meet with her family went to great lengths to persuade them to do whatever they could in order to get her to go to their rehab center. The guy even went as far as to ask her family if there was any way to bribe her, in any way, in order to get her to agree to go. So, long story short, my girlfriend’s family told her they were going to rat out her best friend, (who is a nurse) to her job….because they were aware that she was taking drugs from her job and using them. This idea came straight from the shmuk that was sent from the “rehab” facility. Anyways, she went to the rehab in NJ and came back. She moved all her stuff out of my house upon arriving home from the rehab facility. She ended up moving back into my house a month later. She did not stay clean; because she was not willing to stay clean. She was not willing to get clean in the first place.
        There are scammers out there that will do anything to take/steal/rob money from family’s by scaring them into doing things they would never think of doing. Yes, shmuks!
        Fast forward 4 years to the present day.
        I decided I was WILLING to do whatever it took to get clean around December of 2011. I went to an IOP Program and “graduated.” I have been clean now for almost 2 years. I go to AA – which was recommended by the IOP Program I attended. It has saved my life. It was able to save my life because I was WILLING! I’m still with the same girlfriend of which I spoke. She has been struggling for the past 1 1/2 years. She doesn’t go to AA/NA all that much. I have given her countless suggestions on what she can do in order to STAY sober. She will get 2-4 months clean and then relapse.
        She is WILLING to get clean, but keeps failing. Why? She’s tried many things, but refuses to try AA/NA for more than a meeting a month. She thinks the meetings are too “clicky.” (If that’s even a word)
        So, she has finally decided to try AA/NA because she is WILLING to get sober, but hasn’t been able to STAY sober. She is now going on 5 months clean. I have seen changes in her that I thought I would never see. Why? Because she was willing to get clean, willing to go to AA/NA, willing to do whatever it took to stay clean. AA/NA was the last option on her list. I don’t know why?! She was seeing that it was working for me…..amongst other things that I was doing. She even built a resentment towards the program in the process. Anyways, She has built a support network of people who have struggled with the same things she’s struggled with.

        AA/NA
        It’s an option. It’s an entirely free option. You can work the program any way that keeps you clean. There is not one person who has told me I “must” do this or that. I receive suggestions and advice. I get guidance……..I get everything I need in order to help me stay clean and sober. I would not be clean right now if it weren’t for the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous and the WILLINGNESS to do whatever it took to get, and stay, clean.

        Suggestion: If one is willing to get clean and sober, try everything and anything …..until you find what works for YOU!
        I’m not here saying AA is the only way, because I would sound like a fool. But, I am here saying I’ve seen it work for many people who are willing to do whatever it takes to get clean and sober. I’m not sure why anyone would bash a program that has worked…….no matter how small or large the percentages.

  11. Speaking the truth is only ‘bashing’ to those who refuse to accept the facts and can not deal with the truth. The cr4y of ‘bashing’ is but a mind blink defense aganst a reality that conflicts with held belief..

  12. Looks like I’m late to the party as usual. So this banter between Matt and Steve has run its course and I don’t have the time or the desire to read all of it. I get the gist of it.

    This article is an obvious anti-A.A. bunch of rhetoric set out to use various red-herrings to win some argument and to provide fodder for those folks hell-bent on bashing A.A. The motivation? Could be a number of things; folks against A.A. could be folks who had a spouse who went to A.A., got sober and dumped them. Could be a potential member who was told that they’re probably not real alcoholic and should go try something else. Could be folks who stand to gain money from the treatment industry. Could be folks who are radically atheistic.

    In any case, A.A. does not align with the disease concept.

    Let me repeat that;

    A.A. does not align with the disease concept. Never did, never will. Alcoholics drink to achieve a certain state of consciousness. This they do despite certain consequences.

    What the alcoholic is powerless over is the obsession that they will some day beat the game. When it comes to drinking alcohol, they are powerless to control and enjoy their booze once they start. If you don’t believe this, prove me wrong. Those two things, that describe the alcoholic before the drink and during it, is what I believe must be present at the same time to be considered what we call an alcoholic. You have another definition for it probably. That’s fine by me. If so, this is where we disagree.

    Alcoholics that have “taken” the twelve steps have often achieved a state of having power over booze, their lives, the desire to drink booze in the future, etc. I’m sober today and I plan on being sober Friday. That’s two days away. None of this day at a time bs. The only thing that I’m contingent on daily in A.A. is maintenance of my spiritual condition.

    Anything that you think I’ve said to the contrary is probably a matter of differentiating A.A. with treatment centers… 12-step based or otherwise. A.A. ≠ treatment centers. Let me repeat that; A.A. ≠ treatment centers.

    I knew this was anti/XA rhetoric when I read the title and saw the portion/half-truth of the study they chose to source.

    Tell me where exactly that you come up with this “fact” that A.A. has a 5% failure rate… aka a 95% dropout rate after one year?

    Steve Slate asks, “Why do you have to make amends for behavior which is out of your control?” This is a red-herring in a pretty good attempt to debunk the disease model myth… and an effective one.

    But let’s get real. I get drunk, screwed your wife, and when we meet, I say, “How’s the wife and my kids?” Do I owe you an amend or not? Did I harm you? Well, despite that, I need free of it. I make the amend to you for me as much for you. The amend I make to you may be to leave you alone… to stop porking your wife. Do you understand?

    1. This is quite possibly the worst defense of AA and the disease concept that I have ever read…

        1. Yes. Understood. Aside from your endearing snarkiness you are apparently, also, quite the romantic. McGowdog… Something tells me you just might be capable of the exact kind of self serving transgression you so delicately describe in your ‘scenario’… even without the drunk in place. But, hey. That’s just my take. Plus…you know…as long as one makes amend for said porking, one is good-n-free of that pesky personal accountability stuff 😉 Gotta’ love that about 12 stepping :0)

          “I make the amend to you for me as much for you”. Lol…yeh…that sounds about right. Except, the math is a little off. Pretty sure in this scenario your magnanimous amend is designed to weigh in your favor, shield you from any blow back from your conscience -assuming it’s alive and well- way more than it represents a genuine, heartfelt expression of humility and respect for the guy whose wife you screwed and “may stop screwing”…or was it ‘porking’ ??? I forget. Anyway…you do get points for the crudely-colorful use of language in your chosen scenario. *cheeeezy grin*

          1. Wow, P.J. I guess what they say is true…….Some are sicker than others. You, sir, are an ill-informed idiot.

          3. McGowdog……I agree with almost everything you have stated. However, I do not agree that addiction is a disease. A/A’ers are always referring to there problem as a “disease.” I do believe that A/A has also aligned itself with the disease concept in the past. Anyways, I like to call it a disorder, not a disease. It makes me cringe every time someone is speaking and they call it a disease. I go to about 5-6 meetings a week, and I don’t see how anyone can refere to it as a “cult.” That’s just laughable. I still can think for myself. I still have a life outside A/A. And, lastly, I do not believe people choose to be addicts. I think this site uses the term addict in a very loose way. In order to fit their narrative, of course.

          4. Thomas, I’m glad you agree with me, but I don’t agree with you.

            A.A. does not align with the disease concept.

            Some who come in may have a physical sickness, but A.A. does not treat that.

            5 or 6 meetings is too much and cult-like. You should back that off to one meeting a week and spend your spare time doing steps and/or take up s hobby or work overtime and bank the money.

          5. Yes, A/A does allign itself with the disease concept. Anyway, going to 5-6 meetings is cult-like? 5-6 hours a week does not mean I belong to a “cult.” Only the misinformed say stuff like that.

          6. Well then, let’s agree to disagree about the disease concept then. But answer me this, what pill can a doctor prescribe to me for my spiritual malady? Either the A.A. book is lying or it’s telling the truth; “Once we straighten out spiritually, we straighten out mentally and physically.”

            As to me being misinformed to 5 to 6 meetings a week? I used to do that and no longer need to. My weekly homegroup meeting often turns into 3 or 4 or 5 hour outings. I have family friends hobbies and a career apart from A.A. And you?

        2. Just checking in since my last post, McGowdog.

          I have close to 18 months sober. I have cut my meetings down to one or two a week; mostly because I’m working, finally, and working a ton of hours. (I’m actually employable now)
          I agree with what you are saying about the “Spiritual” aspect of my disorder. I consider myself to be “spiritual” and not “religious.”
          I agree that there has to be a balance, and that’s what I’m struggling with at the moment. It’s a balancing act and the “old timers” remind me of that and look out for me because I’ve aligned myself with people in the program that I feel are honest, good, hard working people who care; and they have proven themselves to be just that.

          In closing, I’d do agree that one can be mislead and taken advantage of in the program if they’re naive. It does take some common sense when entering the rooms of AA.
          Anyways, I’m in a much better place today! The people that I’ve aligned myself with in the rooms of AA are a huge part of that as well as my higher power.

          1. Good you hear it Tom… and good to hear you got a yob. Very important to be responsible and accountable.

            One to two meetings a week is perfect. Less than that and folks will miss you. You can find time to take care of yourself, your family, community… and fit recovery and helping other drunks in. It’s all the same “stream of life” afterall.

            It’s good to have some oldtimers having your back and all, but the healthy ones will let you find your way. All they’re there for is to point you back to God when you get lost.

  13. Hi there PJ. Are you the PJ from Stinkin’ Thinkin’? If so, let’s just call you SoberPJ. If you’re not the same PJ, I’d be surprised. If it is you, I’ve dug up a small sample of your work where you appear to be Hollier Than Thou, snarky, and just otherwise intolerant to the A.A. program and especially for those that have success with it;

    “”SoberPJ says OK, so I need a god to relieve me of the desire to drink. I have seen where a real alcoholic had a desire to drink and I gave him a sandwich instead and his desire to drink went away for a while. I’m confused. Am I god, or is the sandwich god?

    SoberPJ says Wow, they are really dragging this thing through the raunchy dirt. It doesn’t get too much more vulgar than that. I hope that fair minded people can see what is happening here. Something is terribly wrong with those people. Parents reading this, think about if you would want your child being involved with people that get that raunchy simply when their beliefs are questioned. How much lower will they go and what will it take to send them there? It’s really sicko stuff

    SoberPJ says
    do you read the big lie preamble at the start of the meeting? Hey, if the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking and everything else is only suggested after that, why not do whatever you want? Oh, I can imagine some of our local AA gurus stumbling into that meeting… fireworks baby ! They would immediately take the position that “people in this meeting need to be set straight.” It would be great !!!””

    So, in any case, thanks for pointing out my flaws in character and choice example of a hypothetical amend for Steve Slate.

    It was Steve State, btw, I was trying to address. I used a somewhat harsh example of an amend to make a point to his first inquisition about “Why would you make amends to behavior that you did not chose?” I was trying to demonstrate that harm we do to others IS our choice and is NOT lumped together with nor accountability side-stepped under the guise of some disease.

    I guess what I was trying to say is that some of us in A.A. find no use for the disease model.

    Oh, but y’all are free to use each and every wrong and bad thing I say as an example of how A.A. is an out-and-out failure and is the scourge of our very society.

    May y’all spend eternity finding like-minded anti/XAers to agree with, slather with honey and hugs and prove to all the world what a dangerous and ineffective place A.A. is.

  14. I have some very good memories of AA and NA. I learned a lot, I met many wonderful people there, and some are still my friends today. What I do not like about AA are the beliefs, esp the powerlessness and loss of control. They do say it’s a disease, ie this disease is cunning, baffling, powerful, etc. That’s why I left. It has too much negative thinking.

    1. Not exactly. They say alcohol is cunning baffling and powerful… for the alcoholic, but not so for the moderate drinker or the hard drinker with a sufficient reason to stop or moderate.

      Once one takes the treatment they no longer lack power. It’s quite that simple. I am no longer powerless over alcohol.

  15. Also, they do say you have to make amends and I like that part. It means taking responsibility for your behavior. They say we have character defects and I do NOT like that part because what’s the point of focusing on my imperfections – we all have them. I once led a meeting and I started saying some things I like about myself and asked others to do the same, and only 1 person could do it.

    There’s a guy that goes to the agnostic AA meeting, a guy with 25 yrs sober, and he is funny and lighthearted. When people ask if AA is a cult, he says, yes it is. But he likes it anyway.

    You guys, don’t argue and hate. If you don’t like it, say what you don’t like. Let’s not do negative campaigning – leave that to the presidential candidates.

    1. A.A.is a cult, run by L. Ron Hoover… leader of Appliantology. The White Zone is for loading and unloading. Go to the White Zone. You’ll love it!

  16. Addiction is a choice? Have you lost your mind? People choose to be addicts? This sounds like someone who has never been an addict because one would never utter such nonscense. One does not choose to rely on a drug, i.e. heroin, in order to function every day. It happens without knowing. I’m sure if people knew what addiction really was, they wouldn’t “choose” to be addicts. I was ‘addicted to pot’ when I was younger. So, I had no idea what heroin addiction really was all about. I had a false perception of wht addiction was. One can never act like they have a clue about addiction unless they are an addict themselves. That is fact!

    1. I’m an emergency room physician. Does this mean that I can’t possibly know anything about traumatic injuries unless I have open tib/fib fractures? An oncologist can’t possibly know anything about cancer unless he’s got leukemia?

      1. Hello there Richard. I’m glad that you’re a doctor and I’m also glad that you recognize alcoholism to be a medical condition, but it’s not a broken arm nor is it cancer… the latter of which you have no cure for.

        Have you ever been drunk and unable to stop? Have you drank booze against your own will?

        Thank God that Dr Carl Jung and Dr Silkworth both had the balls to look the alcoholic in the eye and say, “I can’t help you.” Do you?

      2. Isn’t it ironic that a doctor makes a comment that leads me to believe that he hasn’t a clue. It’s the Richard’s of the world that are getting people addicted to prescription pills. Doctors should be certified in a program that educates them more about addictive medications; It’s becoming an epidemic in this country! A good majority are doctors handing out scripts, for addictive medications, and not having a clue about exactly what they’re doing.

        What is the purpose of pain? Can someone answer that question?

        Anyways, this web page likes to say that addiction is a choice. Well, go without eating for four days, and then tell me whether its a “choice” to eat. I hope that makes sense to some people on this site. That’s the best scenario I can come up with at this time. It may be a choice at the very beginning, but there comes a point where it is no longer a choice.

        1. Hi Tom,

          It seems like an arbitrary attack to say that Richard is getting people addicted to painkillers – you have no idea what his prescribing practices are.

          You asked, “what is the purpose of pain?”

          Pain is a signal that tells you something is wrong, so fix it. That holds true for both physical and mental pain. Is that a satisfying answer?

          -Steven

          1. It was more of a point I was trying to make. Feeling pain is the body’s natural way of telling the brain something is wrong, and in what area. Doctors over prescribe pain medication as if pain is a bad thing. Pain is a normal accurance when something is wrong. Drowning out the pain is not a good practice with doctors. Doctors need to educate themselves on what they could possibly be subjecting their patient to – An addictive substance. I’m sure we can both agree that there is a problem in the medicine that a lot of doctors practice today. There are alternatives to pain medication, but their is little to no consideration for these alternatives. There is a reason that we are seeing opiate use at an alarming rate since OxyContin was introduced to the public. Prescription drugs are abused more than elicite drugs today. Doctors need to pay heed to the effects of the drugs they are prescribing to patients. Too often doctors hand out pain medication like people hand out candy on Halloween.

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  18. I’d call addiction a maladaptive behavior disorder. I don’t think addiction is an actual disease, and behind closed doors most of my colleagues feel the same way. The only reason the medical community goes along with the “addiction as a brain disease” paradigm is so that we can get reimbursed by insurance companies for the care that we provide.

    To answer your questions, no, no one has ever forced me to drink booze against my will. I’ve made the choice a few times to drink more than I should. I experienced negative consequences due to the bad choices that I made. I then made the choice to not do that.again, and I didn’t.

    I think you’re mischaracterizing Dr. Silkworth by saying that he claimed to not be able to help alcoholics. He pushed a little nugget of quackery called “The Belladonna Cure” on many, many drunks…Bill Wilson included. If I can’t help drunks, why do so many of them show up in the ED every weekend, and why am I sewing up their head lacs and ordering so many banana bags? If I have nothing to offer drunks, maybe their sponsors, their fellowships or their Higher Powers should order those CT’s and blood work when they come via EMS or stumble through the doors after their families drop them off.

    1. I’m glad that you don’t believe alcoholism to be a disease. A.A. doesn’t either. A.A. believes it to be a spiritual malady, remember? How does Centura Health charge for a spiritual experience?

      I didn’t imply that someone outside of you forced you to drink against your will. Yiu just proved my point that you don’t know what a real alcoholic is. Don’t feel bad. You’re in good company.

      I can also understand you feeling degraded to have to work on worthless drunks who have sustained self-induced injuries due to.their latest debacle. You, like most folks, hate and misunderstand the real alcoholic. Heck, they are slow to pay their bills and they lie.

      1. You’re really gonna come on here to say that AA doesn’t believe alcoholism to be a disease? If AA is it’s members, then clearly AA believes alcoholism is a disease as most of its members would tell you they think it’s a disease. If AA is its officially released literature, then they do believe it’s a disease – or at least a physical illness – as this quote from an AA pamphlet “Frequently Asked Questions About AA” shows:

        What is alcoholism?
        There are many different ideas about what alcoholism really is.
        The explanation that seems to make sense to most A.A. members is that alcoholism is an illness, a progressive illness, which can never be cured but which, like some other diseases, can be arrested. Going one step further, many A.A.s feel that the illness represents the combination of a physical sensitivity to alcohol and a mental obsession with drinking, which, regardless of consequences, cannot be broken by willpower alone.
        Before they are exposed to A.A., many alcoholics who are unable to stop drinking think of themselves as morally weak or, possibly, mentally unbalanced. The A.A. concept is that alcoholics are sick people who can recover if they will follow a simple program that has proved successful for more than two million men and women.
        Once alcoholism has set in, there is nothing morally wrong about being ill. At this stage, free will is not involved, because the sufferer has lost the power of choice over alcohol. The important thing is to face the facts of one’s illness and to take advantage of the help that is available. There must also be a desire to get well. Experience shows that the A.A. program will work for all alcoholics who are sincere in their efforts to stop drinking; it usually will not work for those not absolutely certain that they want to stop.

        How incredibly insane is that last sentence? After claiming that “free will is not involved, because the sufferer has lost the power of choice over alcohol” they then go on to claim that AA “usually will not work for those not absolutely certain that they want to stop.” What is ‘being certain that you want to stop’ if not the will to stop drinking?

        I realize AA claims at times to have no official position on the “disease”, but come on. If they’re gonna have no position, they can’t be putting a position out there and then claiming to have no position. Nor can they go about endorsing Marty Mann and the NCA in the Grapevine – which if you don’t know anything about the NCA, it’s sole mission was to spread the idea that alcoholism is a disease.

        I thought you knew your AA history Mcgowdog?

        1. No, I don’t believe alcoholism is a disease nor did Bill W. I could care less what the A.A. Grapevine nor A.A. approved pamphlets nor the 12×12 says.

          Get this… I think Bill W became a whackadoodle about four years after he first got sober. I think the first 103 pages of the A.A. book are brilliant and BS after that.

          I’m neither an A.A. expert nor an A.A. archivist. I do steps. That’s what I’m an expert at.

          Oh, btw, hi Steven!

          1. I agree with you Dog, because I do not see anywhere in the first 164 pages of the Big Book of AA that uses the word “disease.” Bill W. does refer to it as an “illness.”
            IMO, the BB is the sole authority in AA – All other material or comments are representations
            of opinions, which we are all entitled to.

          2. I’ve got news for you, UncleMeat…ALL of the Big Book is opinion. NONE of it is concrete fact. It’s the ramblings of a LSD abusing stock swindler and a deluded proctologist who thought that drinking was an allergic reaction. Hint: drinking booze to excess has NOTHING to do with histamine release.

          3. Richard’s comment above is the most idiotic/ignorant comment, opinion, misinformation on this page.

            The A.A. book aka Big Book is packed full of folks’ experiences. Bill W did not abuse LSD bwt. He experimented with it. Go ahead and bad-mouth Bob Smith too. He worked with over 5000 drunks in his day.

          4. Dr. Bob Smith was a proctologist who thought drinking was an allergy and operated on patients while drinking. FACT.

            Bill Wilson liked LSD so much that he wanted to hand it out at AA meetings. FACT.

          5. Richard, look here. The only thing you are a doctorate of is being a lying Agent Orange A.A.-Hate spewing clone.

            Dr. Bob was not uet privy to the “Problem” of the alcoholic until his meeting with Bill Wilson. Dr. Silkworth is the one who coined the term allergy and it’s nothing for you “Professionals”to get your panties in a wad over.

            So Bill contributed the problem, Bob brought the notion of a solution tailored by a 1st Century Christian group the Oxford Group, and that’s where the program got its start. Bob did have a convention to go to after meeting Bill, got drunk, came back, slept it off, had to perform a surgery hung over, and Bill gave him some beers to steady his hands to complete the surgery. Then Bob left there, made his 9th Step amends up and down the block never to drink again. You tell half-truths which is a lie, liar.

            Now, Bill was trying LSD to try and get over chronic depression and to try and induce a spiritual experience. Good for him. Was the stuff legal back then? In any case, another half-truth from you. Tell Orange I said “Hi”.

  19. Hey Dog,

    I agree with you about the disease concept because I believe
    the AA Big Book is the sole authority in the program. Everything else
    is simply other peoples opinion which they are entitled to have.
    The Big Book refers to alcoholism as an illness. I do not recall
    anywhere in the first 164 pages where it call it a disease.

    1. Thank you for your observations UM, and you have a nice relaxing Memorial Day weekend.

      While you’re here UM, I’d like to ask you a question or two. I’m doing an A.A. meeting survey. Do you go to A.A. meetings and if so, how many times have you seen rapes or sexual assaults occur in the rooms or as a result of its inhabitants.? How does the A.A. group react to the blatant exploitation of women, children, and newcomers in general at meetings or clubs you may have attended?

      Granted, we know criminals/law-breakers get sent to A.A. to get their court papers signed quite a bit. Is it fair to single A.A. out as being dangerous and ineffective because of it, or are these angry ass-biting A.A. haters just barking up the wrong tree… in your opinion of course?

      1. Never seen a rape, sexual assault or any kind of assault in my 28 years sober. I have attended meetings in California, Tennessee, Virginia and New Hampshire. Not one, not a single one has occured.
        13th. Stepping occurs sometimes, but meeting leaders will make the topic of discussion “13th. Stepping – What is it and what to watch out for” so newcomers get warned how to avoid it and the danage it causes.”
        Any criminal violations are reported to proper authorities if they occur and that is the advice that is given.

        When courts send people to AA, AA is not required to sign anything. It is done as a courtesy. Probation & Parole have their own job to do, it is not our responsibility.

          1. Hey Matt!

            Good points, Meat. I’d like to inject my opinion about 13th Stepping here, a topic which anti/XAers love to slobber about.

            I say what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. The odds are good but the goods are odd. If you go to A.A. for hookups, you ne a sick individual. But guess what? It happens.

            I’ve seen just as many women spread their legs in meetings as I’ve seen dudes scheming for action. Usually when they hook up, they both suffer. I’d bet statistically that quite as many doctors across the United States and the world do just as much raping and molesting and sexual assaulting as Father Nelson.

    2. The Big Book is nothing *but* opinions. NONE of it is scientific fact. It’s all the ramblings of an early 20th century stock swindler and a proctologist who thought that excessive alcohol consumption was an allergic reaction. Hint: drinking is NOT an allergic reaction.

      1. Richard, say what you will about the A.A. book, Bill Wilson and Bob Smith. If you have no use for it, fine with me.

        I’ve found it to be most informative for alcoholics like me… a book written by alcoholics for alcoholics. Works for me.

  20. Hey Con,

    I got news for you, it is the sole authority in AA. I could care less about
    the other “experts”.”
    Thanks for your opinion. You know what they say about opinions don’t you
    “They are like a——s, everyone has one, even a——s !”
    Here is a fact for you: Medicine is not science.

      1. Easy there Matt. Why don’t we let these fine folks here continue to hate on A.A. as they do and we’ll do what we do… help the drunks in our path that are willing to receive our help.

        These folks cannot nor will not hurt A.A. what we can do is watch our language and not give our detractors our power with petty profanities.

        If you want to speak your mind about alcoholics and A.A.recovery, come to my blog that I’ve listed for you on this post. All you’ll need is a name and a gmail account.

        1. That’s right Dog. Matt would be a welcome poster from what
          I’ve seen here and I like your blog a lot.
          You are right about the haters. One of my old sponsores told me
          about what resentments do to people. He said “The more you hate,
          the sicker you get !”

      2. Someone isn’t sounding too serene right now. Maybe it’s time to work Steps 4-9 again, or talk to that Higher Power about removing that resentment, lest you pick up the bottle again. I’m worried about you, Matt.

  22. Let me explain why I believe the study is incredibly misleading and how Mr. Slates’ follow-up commentary is quite dangerous to someone who may be looking for help.

    I’m only going off of how the study was “reported.” You wrote that “SHARP gathered hundreds of men with alcohol use problems, mostly through court referrals/mandates.” Immediately, there’s a flaw in the entire study. If you are measuring “success” which in this study meant abstinence or a lack of binge-drinking, you have to look at candidates who have at least some desire to stop drinking. To be court ordered to AA doesn’t mean they want to stop drinking. They may…but it has been my experience that there is no correlation between the two. The program would have little chance of succeeding without this desire. For any therapy, program, etc. to work, there needs to be at least some desire to change. The study in general could have easily avoided this potential problem by only testing those who had some desire to stop.

    The next issue is that you make no distinction between AA and the 12 Steps. You mention both as essentially meaning the same thing but if you have been around AA for any length of time you know that people confuse the fellowship “meetings, talking to other alcoholics, etc.” as what AA is. Many people “in” AA do not do the steps, know what the steps are, or have done some of them but have not completed the “program.” The study ruled out people who did not “attend” enough meetings which is to imply that to qualify for AA, you need to just go to meetings. This is not true. The only solution AA offers (and you can argue that AA as a whole fails to deliver this message) is the 12 steps found in the Big Book. Therefore, you cannot conclude that AA does not work, if the majority (or some percentage) does not use the prescribed model. There is not mention in the study’s report if your candidates attempted the steps, finished them, stopped, etc. It’s incomplete. Here’s an analogy to clarify:

    Most people would agree that Tylenol works. It’s been studied, I’m sure, at length. It’s medicine. Now if you got a headache and but did not take the Tylenol as prescribed (you take 50 pills in an hour and throw it all up for example) you may say “Tylenol doesn’t work.” But this would be inaccurate. You didn’t take the medicine as prescribed. And so it is with AA. To make a claim about AA not working, you need to look at the people who have in the very LEAST done the steps (the only solution they offer).

    In addition (and this may be the most important thing I’ll say)….

    A HUGE problem in all these studies, discussion, etc. is WHAT CONSTITUTES SUCCESS. The issue here is that when we’re talking about RECOVERY we almost always use an all or nothing success rate. We hear (and it’s accurate I’m sure!) that 98% of people in AA “fail”. But what does that mean? Imagine someone stays sober for 40 years and then “relapses.” Under the all or nothing measure of success, chalk this guy up as a 0%. What needs to be considered as more practical, is quality of life. Tell me that 98% of people who join AA…their lives get WORSE…I will call you a goddamn liar.

    If you were on diet “X” for one year and lost 100 pounds, people would shout from the rooftops “Great job. That diet must have really worked for you!” And they’d be right if we’re talking about overall success. But within that one year, you could have went to Burger King and ordered the entire fucking menu on several times, and really went nuts. Here is the analogous “diet slip”. And yet, we look at the 100 pounds lost, and don’t take into consideration the Burger King fiasco. Not so with recovery. We have this empirically misleading 0% or 100% .

    I won’t go on to point out the low test subjects in the study (relative to the millions of addicts in recovery) or the ridiculously subjective commentary. What troubles me is the tone of Mr. Slate and of many of the people in the comment section. You are absolutely entitled to question elements like the disease model, the idea of an “allergy”, and whether or not the concept of a “Higher Power” is legitimate. But I see an unfounded hostility towards a group–an altruistic one BY DESIGN–that has no other major concerns other than helping the lives of people who are desperately struggling. It’s the most perverse type of intellectual scrutiny. It gives little to no weight to those who it has saved–not helped–saved from dying. To say that these successes stem from a “placebo effect” is fine. But please, please, please come to the table with a little more than this garbage.

    1. Hi Scott,

      There’s probably individual articles on my site that address each of the issues you raise here. So, I won’t be addressing them all; that would take far too much time that I’m not willing to dedicate at the moment.

      However, I will address what I see as your main point. You’ve essentially stated that “it works if you work it”, and since we don’t know whether these subjects “worked it”, then we can draw no conclusions about the effects of AA/12-step ideology from this study. I’m of course summarizing what you said here:

      Immediately, there’s a flaw in the entire study. If you are measuring “success” which in this study meant abstinence or a lack of binge-drinking, you have to look at candidates who have at least some desire to stop drinking. To be court ordered to AA doesn’t mean they want to stop drinking. They may…but it has been my experience that there is no correlation between the two. The program would have little chance of succeeding without this desire. For any therapy, program, etc. to work, there needs to be at least some desire to change. The study in general could have easily avoided this potential problem by only testing those who had some desire to stop.

      You are wrong. I will show you why.

      Since the test subjects were randomly assigned to the various treatment conditions, then your assumptions about their “desire to stop drinking”, and your premise that “The program would have little chance of succeeding without this desire” would have to be assumed of all three groups analyzed here. So you could say that in the:

      AA Group – “The program would have little chance of succeeding without this desire.” And, we don’t know if they “worked it.”
      Lay Led RBT Group (CBT) – “The program would have little chance of succeeding without this desire.” And, we don’t know if they “worked it.”
      Control Group (no treatment) – “The program would have little chance of succeeding without this desire.” And, we don’t know if they “worked it.”

      So, while all three groups had the same chance of including people with no desire to stop drinking, there was still an observable difference in the outcomes. The AA group had a highly elevated rate of binge drinking when compared to those in the CBT and No-treatment groups – and this result stands, regardless of their initial desire to stop drinking. So, “please, please, please come to the table with a little more than this garbage.”

      Also, you seem to smuggle in the idea that I stated in this article, based on these results, that AA doesn’t work. I probably say that elsewhere on the site, for sure, but I didn’t say it here (and that’s a nuanced point and argument about the agent of change being the individual – rather than any program, treatment, counselor, or other external force). What I said here is that exposure to AA can lead to increased levels of binge drinking, and that because of this fact you might be better off without such “help”. That is the point of this article.

      -Steven

    2. Welcome to the discussion Scott.

      Your detractors here will use your profanity against you. Just an fyi. It doesn’t bother me. I think you make very good points and are passionate about your recovery. You’ll get no points from that in here.

      You’re welcome to come to my blog and discuss this further. It’s slow over there, but there’s a few of us conversing these days.

      As.far as our detractors on the internet… putting aside their motives, the more stately of us would encourage us to listen to them, tip our hats to them, and thank them. Right? Make use of what they offer. Because after all, do you speak for A.A.? Do I?

      1. Couple issues I want to address and bring to the discussion.

        1.) Several comments have addressed the concept of making amends and their purpose. I don’t see how it matters whether you believe or don’t believe in alcoholism as a disease. The author threw out whether we’d expect patients with Alzeihmer’s to make amends with their condition, for example. My response is that amends are what good people do. It’s making right of the wrong you’ve done. I’ve done amends recently and I’m sober. We do harm unintentionally all the time. Good people try to fix it. I work with kids with autism who have plenty excuse for saying blunt/rude things. I still teach them to correct themselves despite their “condition.”

        2.) The concept of an “allergy” is of great interest, especially to the scientifically inclined. My question to the author is if his views will change at all if or when they find physical differences/ genetic markers in alcoholics versus non-alcoholics. For me, it doesn’t really matter. Somewhere along the way, whether it’s an actual physical compulsion (craving), or psychologically learned, a switch goes off where I want to finish the entire bottle. I logically and rationally knew it would turn out badly each time, and yet I’d continue pursuing it. I’d like to learn more about this cognitive approach because I’m curious of how it explains the ridiculous behavior of people using while on probation, losing their children, and dying.

        3.) I’ve read a little on this SMART recovery, etc. Brief research has shown me that it’s essentially the same components of writing inventory in Step work.

        4.) I’ll end with this. In recovery, we’re talking about LIFE AND DEATH. Therefore, recovery, and GOOD recovery means will spread like wild-fire through word of mouth, etc. Families desperately are seeking out ways to fix their loved ones. It just seems odd to me that something with a 60% success yield like I read with CBT WOULDN’T have people and their families foaming at the mouth. We’d be shouting from the rooftops. And yet it isn’t. Is there a big AA cover up? So we can hoard people in church basements? Boost our egos for zero monetary profit? Several doctors, years back, referred me to AA. Are these doctors uninformed as well of better methods? Honestly, for me, I’ve found a way out. This is just interesting discussion for me. Some of the comments are just straight crazy-talk.

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    1. Addiction – It’s very hard for me to believe all of these studies. I believe each person is different. There are many different types of Alcoholics and Addicts. I had over 2 years clean and relapsed. Did I go on a binge? No. I went back to the rooms of AA. My belief is that if someone has put the time into recovery and is aware of their problem, then they will seek out help or the rooms after relapse. How somebody came up with this “info/study” is beyond me. It seems to me as if there is a motive behind the bashing and negative talk that surrounds these forums when it comes to a 12 Step program. Maybe it’s because you’re looking out for the welfare of people/strangers? Or, is it because AA/NA is free? Because, as we all know, there’s a lot of money to be made with helping people with addiction issues.

      We always need someone/something to blame for our woes. After all, we are human, right?

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  28. The take-home message here is: you’re probably better off learning a cognitive behavioral approach for addressing substance use problems, or you might be better off getting no help at all* –.. im sure aa has got some flaws but i use cba and aa meetings and they work great… i still dont agree aa is harmful. that is a old study.. you forget to mention the postive parts of aa.. like making amends.. personal inventory.. trying to fix your flaws… meditation.. and all the people you meet in aa.. i just think that you would benifst the most if you took the postive stuff out of what ever works for you

  29. One of the easiest ways to determine someone is desperately trying to defend something they don’t, in their heart of hearts, truly believe is a disproportionate level of defensiveness. Matt, your posts sound like a crazy text I might have sent to an ex girlfriend when I’d been drinking and doing cocaine for three straight days. In fact, you sound like a female at that time of the month. In regard to your 4 qualifications for a disease, what you’re conveniently forgetting is the fact that a series of your own choices put you in the position where those qualifications became applicable. In another post, you indignantly ask the question, “Do you think I hurt my family by choice”. Here’s your answer, though you may have felt bad about it, you did hurt your family by making a series of choices that, over time, diminished the importance of your family’s well being for the sake of your own. Backing up, I’ve struggled with alcohol and drugs, and I’m guilty of hurting people I love in ways that still make me cringe. At least I’m man enough to admit that I’m responsible for my own mistakes, and that I will do my best to never let that happen again….amazingly enough, it’s possible to admit your mistakes, and also realize this doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. Please don’t be a coward and act like you had no choice but to hurt your family. It’s weak, inaccurate, and unnecessary since you’re turning your life around. On another note, after going to treatment where they obviously told me I was helpless, and my only option was AA and abstinence for life, I took a more practical approach; I quit cocaine and now drink alcohol and smoke pot like a normal human. My relationships are healthy, I’m gainfully employed, and I can’t imagine being stupid enough to have bought into the boiler plate lies they dump on every person who ends up in treatment. At the end of the day, I’d rather be drunk and howling at the moon than sitting in a room full of grown men repeating a string of trite cliches and acronyms, babbling about how bad their day was. I realize we live in a different age, but I’m quite certain God didn’t design grown men to hide in little rooms whining about their feelings and holding each other’s hands for an hour every day. Just food for thought…if you’re past the cravings, you don’t need AA anymore.

    1. OMG, Steve! Mr. Kevin B. MBA Sir commented on me again. I am so excited! Steve, I absolutely love the soft blue in the site, and the new font is scrumtrulescent! Yes, that’s a word, even though it has the stupid wavy red line underneath it!

      Mr. Kevin B. MBA Sir,
      Thank you for your comments. I like you. If I choose to be a female, then it is my choice, right? Isn’t this whole thing about choices? Isn’t that the point you’re trying to make? So what, if I want to be female?? Don’t judge me! Hell…Steve is made of ice cream. Are you going to judge him too, Mr. Kevin B. MBA Sir.

      Forever yours,
      Matt

      1. Hey Matt, I don’t know if you can just choose to be a female or not. I do, however, believe that you can choose to be a Lesbian. Or an illegal alien.

        Kevin seems to think you’re on the rag. I hope the females who read that accusation aren’t offended. I’ve never experienced the phenomena myself, nor would I choose to.

        What were we talking about here again? Oh yeah. How A.A. sucks and how it’s at the core of all the sin and woes in the planet.

        Kevin is correct in the virtue of taking the spiritual approach, and A.A. technique as well; “So our troubles, we think, are of our own making.”

        So Kevin stopped snorting or smoking Coke and now enjoys weed and booze, Good for you.

        Sorry a Treatment Center sent you to A.A. That’s a place that no one should be sent to. It’s a place that should be recommended to a very few and only to folks who are truly grown-up enough to not be victims and to take responsibility for their own recovery. Not a place to try to find yourself, to get in touch with your feelings, not a place to duck jail time, not a place to satisfy the courts/your probation officer/ your counselor/ your spouse, parents, boss or children, etc.

        If you can keep yourself sober or control and enjoy your drinking, do it. If not, find help and let us know what worked for you besides sitting at a Kindle/iPad and pissing and moaning through your fingertips.

  30. Pingback: The Truth is sooooooo Tasteless - The case of Gabrielle Glaser and the dueling Cochrane Reviews - The Clean Slate Addiction Site

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