The latest news on Charlie Sheen is BIG news. He has publicly called AA a cult, indicated that it’s been screwing up his life for 22 years, and that it has control over his family. These latest comments have brought things to a true tipping point. He’s being universally attacked as a crazy person for criticizing AA, and no one in the major media seems to have the slightest interest in investigating his claims. I contend that Sheen’s comments are 100% correct.
While Sheen is the most famous person to call Alcoholics Anonymous a cult, he certainly isn’t the first. In fact, these claims go as far back as the 40’s. For a thorough review, definitely check out this piece, Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult? An Old Question Revisited (by L. Allen Ragels), available at stinkin-thinkin.com, Here’s an excerpt:
Alexander and Rollins, both sociologists, went underground in order to understand the world of the Steps as seen through the eyes of actual group participants. “[B]oth investigators attended AA meetings over a period of several months,” they recounted. “In addition, one of the investigators actively assumed the role of an alcoholic . . . she admitted to members of an AA gathering that she was ostensibly an alcoholic in need of help. She then chose a ‘sponsor’ and began to attend both official meetings and informal social gatherings.” The result of this clandestine effort was a decisive study published in California Sociologist, “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult.”
Essentially, Alexander and Rollins measured AA against criteria developed by Robert J. Lifton, whose 1961 work, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, is a classic work on thought reform or brainwashing. Measured against Lifton’s standards, Alexander and Rollins concluded that AA is indeed a cult. “AA uses all the methods of brain washing, which are also the methods employed by cults,” they found. “It is our contention that AA is a cult.”
The piece then goes on to systematically analyze the many aspects of AA which prove that it is a cult. It’s a very compelling case, and again, contrary to the universal shock which people have expressed over Sheen’s claim, it’s not the only case that’s been made – people have been calling AA out as a cult for nearly 70 years now. Before that, it was recognized that the organization from which AA sprung, The Oxford Group, was also a cult.
AA asks you to renounce your own will and surrender to a generic “Higher Power”. Lacking the ability to communicate with your higher power, you are told to follow the commands of senior AA members. No one is allowed to talk about what goes on at the meetings outside of the meetings. Members are “anonymous” and are not supposed to reveal their own, or anyone else’s membership outside of the meetings/to non members. Whereas self-examination can be empowering, AA takes the practice to an extreme level asks its members to constantly humble themselves and admit their shortcomings, work on “character defects” perpetually, and to regularly confess to each other, constantly reliving their problems and thereby reinforcing a negative self-image. The only way to live with themselves is to keep confessing to the group, and keep trying to live the spiritual life prescribed by the program. Should a member attempt to live their spiritual or sober lifestyle on their own, without constant AA involvement, they’ll be belittled by the group as they attempt to detach, told that they’re on the verge of relapse, and that they will DIE if they don’t keep up their meeting attendance. Threats will be made, and rumors will be passed about any member who seems as if they’re growing away from the group. The solution they offer indoctrinates a troubled person with the belief that they can only stay sober one day at a time, and that the only thing which will keep them from drinking is their “Higher Power”, a call to their AA “sponsor”, or a trip to a meeting. Indeed, everything about the group breeds dependence on the group, and mortal fear of leaving the group.
But perhaps even more compelling than all of this, are the current creepy events surrounding Charlie Sheen. After his latest incident, involving allegations of a drug & sex binge that landed him in the hospital for a possible hernia, the producers of his show “Two and a Half Men”, staged an intervention of sorts, halted production, and asked him to get “treatment”. He decided, after several past trips to treatment programs and 22 years in AA, that he would get some sort of treatment at home, without staying in a treatment center. This was unacceptable to his colleagues. He proclaimed that he was staying sober, that he could prove it with urine tests, and that he was ready to work. He was derided by everyone as not being ready, and mocked for claiming he was sober, then the show’s creator, Chuck Lorre, placed a title card in one of the episodes which included this line “If Charlie Sheen outlives me, I’m gonna be really pissed.” This can be seen as nothing other than a clear dig at Charlie, a bit of psychological abuse and pressure, and an indication that he highly disapproves of Sheen’s recent choices – one of which was to try something different than the conventional recovery route. Who would do such a thing to a friend who is currently embarking on a quest to change their life? I’ll tell you who: an AA member who believes that AA is the only way.
I don’t have direct evidence (in the form of any personal statements which confirm it) that Lorre is an AA member, although I have evidence which strongly suggests it (thanks to a commenter over at stinkin-thinkin.com). And whether he is or isn’t in AA, he’s clearly indoctrinated into their teachings. On November 12th 2009, The Clare Foundation, which runs several treatment programs highly steeped in and built upon AA/12-step philosophy and practices (they teach the 12-steps, give the Big Book to their clients, and hold 12-step meetings within their facilities), held a massive event honoring Chuck Lorre with the Friends of Clare Tribute Award “for his contribution to the recovery community nationwide.” In case you didn’t know, “recovery community” means “Alcoholics Anonymous”. Furthermore, Dr Drew is a past recipient of the same award, as are other 12-step pushers/members; the list of board members reads like a “who’s who” of the entertainment industry, and also contains many celebrities known for being AA members/”in recovery” – such as Jamie Lee Curtis, Charlotte Rae, Meredith Baxter, Anthony Hopkins, and Buzz Aldrin among others.
Seeing how the event was packed with entertainment industry AA members, and taking into account everything we know about the Clare Foundation’s mission, and then considering Lorre’s behavior towards Sheen – it’s probably not too far off to say that Chuck Lorre is an AA Member. In fact, as soon as Sheen made his comments calling AA a cult, the decision was made to cancel production of the remainder of the season. According to the LA Times:
On Friday, Charlie Sheen appeared on FOX Sports Radio’s “Loose Cannons” program to speak with host Pat O’Brien about the future of his hit show. Asked what happened with “Two and a Half Men” — the show was suspended after Sheen trashed executive producer Chuck Lorre on multiple radio shows — he said, “They kept getting up in my grill, kept telling me how to live my personal life, [I’m] saying, ‘Back off, back off,’ and they wouldn’t.” (SOURCE: LA Times)
Sheen specifically complained about the judgment of Lorre and his collaborator Lee Aronsohn. “These guys are a couple of AA Nazis and just blatant hypocrites,” he said. “They just do not practice what they preach. It’s so transparent and so sad.” (Lorre has been open about his own battles with substance abuse.)
I don’t know where they got the part about Lorre being open about substance abuse, but with that, and Sheen referring to them as AA Nazis (thus confirming their membership), it’s becoming clear that Lorre is in the cult of AA, and that this is a battle over views of “recovery” more than it is about whether or not Charlie Sheen is using drugs. Sheen has been asking to go back to work, offering to take urine tests, and they have refused. They have sat back and allowed him to be portrayed as insane and selfish, and blamed the halt in production on him, when in fact they are the ones who will not go ahead with production – all because he rejects the life of “recovery”, which means he refuses to take part in 12-step activities and ways of thinking, he refuses the pseudo-spiritual lifestyle of AA, he refuses to believe he has a disease. This has nothing to do with addiction – it has to do with Charlie leaving the cult. To see these guys using their power to punish him publicly because they disagree about AA only serves to prove Sheen’s claim that the organization is a cult.
Witness also a recent response to Sheen’s comments about AA from 12-step thumper Dr Drew:
well he’s got a point, their uhh, success rates aren’t that great but the fact is it does work when people do it… (SOURCE: TMZ)
This is serious doubletalk right here. It’s creepy, and it smacks of cult. He’s saying “yeah I agree, but I don’t”. It’s an insane statement, but this is what people face in AA all the time, and any cult for that matter. When their mumbo jumbo fails to bring the promised changes, the cultists proclaim that you’re not a real believer, you didn’t really give yourself to their ways, or you must have some other sins holding you back from success. Essentially Drew is saying that Sheen didn’t really “do” AA in this statement. AA is built to allow every one of these accusations – if you failed, you didn’t really “surrender to a higher power”, and you need to go back to your first steps to try to do that again with “rigorous honesty”. They excuse every single failure by deflecting the blame back on the person they failed to help, and they suck that person back in with guilt. They claim “never have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path”, meaning essentially that they believe they have a 100% success rate, even though any reliable study shows this idea is nowhere near reality. They can’t measure whether you’ve “thoroughly followed their path”, because the path involves making a mystical connection to God through surrender – how do you measure that? They measure it by failure: if you’ve failed, then you haven’t followed the path, you haven’t gotten right with God – and the infuriating circle of nonsense continues. Drew’s statements about Sheen are further proof that the organization is a cult, he’s bringing his mind-games into the public – what’s normally saved for inside of AA is reaching the light of day, and it ain’t pretty.
Charlie Sheen has turned on the cult, they aren’t happy, and this promises to be a knock down drag out fight because they’ll do anything to impose their way of life on others, even if that means giving up a TV show worth billions of dollars.
UPDATE: Entertainment Tonight is reporting that Charlie has just returned from the Bahamas. They have pictures of him taking a drug test, of which the urine portion has come back clean, and the blood test results are expected to be ready by monday (blood tests are more accurate). If this shows that he’s been clean, then we have to wonder why Lorre won’t bring the show back into production. Some would say it’s Charlie’s strange comments, but Charlie has been a 9/11 Truther for quite some time and publicly commented on that in the past. Many would see that as insane, or a sign of instability – yet it was never reason to shut down production before.
EDITED TO ADD: I realize this may not be the best written post. I’ve been rushing to get something out on this story, but there are so many issues involved that it’s a tough one to cover. So I’d like to sum up what I think is one of the most interesting points here which you won’t find elsewhere. I’m hypothesizing/predicting a particular story-line here. I think that when everything comes out about this whole situation, this will be the whole story: 2 guys are in AA. One of them (Lorre) is the other one’s (Sheen) boss. The boss tolerates the employee’s substance related misdeeds and indiscretions, as long as the employee stays obediently in AA. Employee realizes that after 22 years of struggling, AA hasn’t and will not work for him. He decides to give up on AA and try something else. Boss disapproves, finds this personally offensive, and suspends him from work. Employee fights back and says “you can’t do that, I’m sober, I can prove it, and I want to continue to work, per my contract”. Boss dismisses and belittles employee, pressuring him to come back to AA. Employee resists, denounces AA, and asks to be left alone, and just get on with work. Boss resents the employee because he no longer belongs to AA, and shuts down the whole business simply to punish employee for rejecting his precious fellowship of AA.
I could be absolutely wrong about this. Time will tell. But I’m not wrong about AA being a cult, nor is Charlie Sheen, nor are the countless researchers who’ve come to the same conclusion ove the past 70 years.
YET ANOTHER UPDATE (monday evening): Charlie Sheen confirmed that Chuck Lorre is an AA follower on The Today Show this morning. I’ve got video here – Charlie Sheen Confirms That Chuck Lorre is an AA Member.
What can I say, Steven? You hit a home run once again! Great research in a short period of time. I also rushed to get my blog out there on Friday; it had much feeling, but much less substance and basically said that Sheen speaks the truth. Now is the time for all of us who know the truth about AA, both from research and from first hand experience, to come forward in support of Charlie Sheen. Much like the libs run Hollywood, so does AA. He is now blacklisted for sure, and has very likely signed the death certificate on his career as well as his relationship with his family. I’m not sure if he has any idea what he’s truly signed up for here, but I think there are a lot more of us who know the truth than anyone can imagine.
if you dont like AA dont go to it. The information listed in this story is wrong and obviously is not by someone who is an alcoholic. AA is only works for people who are HONEST!!!! OMG, that is a shocker.You mean you have to be honest. Holy shit. It is not right or fair for people to judge something they have NEVER experienced. If you go to AA saying your an alcoholic and your not you will not get the benefit.
@anonymous
Hey I dont go anymore but something has to be done to out the sickness and the rapes and the rampant 13 stepping in AA. Honest people in AA. Wow thats such Bullshit. I know many good people in AA/nA from decades ago, but now 12 step is filled with Sexual Predators and violent criminals and Dui attendee’s that DONT WANT TO BE THERE. Hello!
I agree there trusted servants are swindling many. It hurts to listen to peer pressure. Be careful, they laugh after they swindle you…
I have tried A.A. a few times and I would rather die an alcoholic than join this fellowship of morons mind controlling freaks. IT IS NOTHING BUT A CULT. STAY AWAY FROM THEM!!!! PLEASE!!!
i feel the exact same way.
Said like an indoctrinated follower. So people who recover elsewhere are DISHONEST. Makes me chuckle. The insidiousness of it, the brainwashing, the innuendo. Simply “not going” would be fine if AA didn’t continue to insist upon itself. The arrogance is appalling, the way it attempts to seep into every nook and cranny of Ones life is consistent and disturbing. Fortunately, it is dying. I recently attended an AA meeting I used to attend 20 years ago, to catch up with friends (a futile effort when you’re dealing with AAers because when you’re out, you’re out), and this meeting that used to be standing room only had exactly ten people. Half of them were Al Anon, as they have opened the meeting to Al Anon in an attempt to keep a roof over their head. It was sad. The old holdouts were clinging to their sad, tired ways and white-knuckling it through their meeting. It’s dying and I’m glad to see other recovery methods move into the forefront (GASP! YES! There are OTHER recovery methods that involve abstinence from chemicals).
My mother in law passed one month ago…after struggling in AA for 2 years (and, yes, working it!), I texted my sponsor from my mother in law’s hospital room to tell her that all resentments are petty, I was letting go and getting on with my life. The 5 nights a week I spent at meetings are now spent with my family, at the gym, doing photography, cooking dinner…embracing life instead of hiding in meetings which reinforce weakness and entrench how debilitated “we” are without the support of the AA family. I came across a quote from Alice Walker: “The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don’t have any.” AA promotes and preys on it’s members lack of self confidence; it is a debilitating doctrine that disallows life to happen in all of its imperfections…AA steppers should only be in “safe” environments, stay guarded against any possible pitfall to one’s sobriety…this mindset promotes looking over one’s shoulder for the shadows that may or may not come. Its unhealthy, draining and I’m done. My text to my devoted sponsor, which expressed my heartfelt thanks and appreciation for her time and help, garnered a sarcastic “good luck.” So, I guess in their eyes, I am sentenced to a certain alcoholic death…unfortunately for AA, I refuse to fail.
Nice job!
I could have written something similar. Good job. I feel free. I’m grateful for my sobriety and now I want to live my life without being called “selfish” for not spending all of my free time in AA.
I noticed a high concentration of narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, mentally disturbed, and codependent people playing out their little dramas while simply not drinking for a period of time in the groups. The women with long term “sobriety” had hooked up with narcissistic men who continue to prey on new women, even the married ones, while those women justify and protect the men from consequence for their behavior. The last meeting I went to, I heard some guy spout off about how he likes to plot and plan against people who piss him off. At no point did anyone say, “that is not cool’. Rather, the group laughed and nodded their heads like fools. I have been the only one to confront a man who gang-raped a new woman in the group. I have heard the women justify that crap with “principles over personalities’, “love and tolerance is our code’. Love for whom? The crazy men? What principles are in that behavior? It is a group of sick, angry people who never are better. It simply is ludicrous to suggest their is a religious way to treat the real cause of addiction as new research…factual and evidence based…indicates. It is a business operating as a non-profit.
the founder of this group Bill W was himself a womanizer and you will hear The old-timers joke about this fact. Its definitely an organization run by a majority of white male american machismo but its sort of changed in the last 20 years.I was thrown out of groups for obtaining a restraining order on my sons father , for abusing me, as if a final restraining order is an easy document to get. . In the small community people break your anonymity and they spread your secrets. You really have to look closely at who you confide in. I have experienced as many problems in AA as in the bars where these creeps abound. If you expect your daughter to get help in AA pay close attention to what she is doing and what sponsor she has.
AA members love to sit and talk about themselves, recounting their addictions with no “cross talk” as they ramble on and on. It encourages the narcissistic behavior of the cult. Plus, there are many, many con artists within the cult who prey upon unsuspecting members. The “big Book of AA” is their bible. There are other, healthier ways to recover from addiction. Those who do recover in AA, are those who have the fortitude to have recovered elsewhere. It Is a cult!
I have always wondered about AA being a cult. Our daughter who has been sobar for 5 years now, makes it her mission to always attend these meeings, it is like she is afraid if she misses a couple she will go back to drinking. I went to a couple of meetings, and if I was an alcoholic, these meetings would drive me to drink. Our daughters not the same person, her personality has changed, and she is very bullying in the way she defends AA. No one can say anything about AA to her, even if it is our opinion, one cannot have an opinion with AA members. To me it is an evil cult, and their symbol is illuminati.
AA is indeed a cult. Since I turned to the Lord Jesus Christ and him only, have I found true hope, forgiveness and love.. Bill W. was a ouija board and LSD user so he’d make a great “sponsor” right? . Satan will keep one sober just as long as one stays away from the cross.
Steve,
Steve,
Another home run. God knows I understand being black listed by AA. After attending more than 4,000 AA meetings myself (as a member in the late 80’s, and then as a researcher through the 90’s) I understand the cult from an inside perspective, and your assesment is spot on. If anything, you are being kind to call it just a cult. In my professional estimation, and based on extensive research, AA has done more harm to substance users in the last 70 years than any other movement in the “treatment” industry. What is truly remarkable is their ability to remain in the dark, thus avoiding scruntiny, and subsequently remaining positive in popluar culture while simultaneously having horrendous success rates and stories of tragic mistreatment and misinformation. The “anonymous” part has worked, it kept research at bay for decades. Well, now you see the cracks forming. Families are destroyed, people are rendered helpless, and the flaws in the theory just keep becoming more clear. People are tired of the destruction and the incessant whining. Whether Charlie makes it or not is to be seen, and truly is not the basis of the argument. Of more importance than his success or failure is that fact that he has taken responsibility for his decisions, and that is infinitely more than can be said for his critics. So, who are the real fools here. Cetainly not Charlie, at least he has personal courage – and having courage is half the battle.
Love your post!
Im hust curious that aa doesnt discuss families and men and women are hooking up hardly anyone in program give up families kids while they do what they want and call it there way they stay sober i would love to take a poll andvsee how many dtay married and i f thats high then it would be a cult if what they do is break families after the person there married too watches them get sober and soon after they find jesus once u here that call a lawyer and file first otherwise aa divorces will go on fot many yrs. And who gets hurt the kids but that’s all wrapped up in a little world that AA is the world that they know all is dad doing is trading one addiction for another my personal opinion is that something happened to him as a child and until they go to therapy and I don’t mean a a therapy they will just be addicted to whatever is in front of them
They don’t find Jesus, they find God as they “understand him” ambiguous, just a little. It’s not Jesus..Jesus doesn’t want people to ignore their outside lives for constant meetings, but AA is not overseen by any professional mental health clinicians..they all oversee each other, a bunch of prior addicts, the blind leading the blind, what’s even worse is the ones leading truly believe they have valuable insight to share and so the obsession continues..like a sad broken record.
AA is a religious cult that has hijacked an entire branch of medicine, and it’s time for this nonsense to be exposed so that the addiction treatment industry can get out of the business of saving souls, and back to the business of saving alcoholics.
AA is a religion that claims not to be religious… It’s one of the most corrupt and dishonest religious movements to be found.
Most people are actually unaware of what AA’s 12 step program actually entails. The Oprafied public is fed stories of perseverance and victory over addiction and they are never really exposed to the process that supposedly get’s folks sober.
The fact is that AA’s 12 step program has everything to do with religion and nothing to do with quitting drinking.
For those of us nontheists who have found success and recovery through the AA program and the 12 steps, your suggestion that it has “everything to do religion” is befuddling.
Certainly, those of us who are enjoying successful recovery, acknowledge that “not drinking” is not the entire solution. Identifying why we drank or why we may wish to drink in the future leads to a necessary process of self-examination and self-actuated change.
I see little similarity between the 12 step program and traditional western religious beliefs based on “the god of Abraham.”
I see a much greater similarity between the 12 step program and the Buddhist teachings of “The Four Noble Truths” and “The Noble Eightfold Path”.
So when you suggest that “AA’s 12 step program has everything to do with religion”, I must wonder, What religion? Perhaps AA’s 12 steps were more inspired by Buddha than Moses or Jesus after all.
In the book it says you have “recovered” How long will it take you to recover? You whole life? Are you broken to the core?
Always An Alcoholic. I Didn’t Recover From Being An Alcoholic. What I Recovered From Is A Hopeless State Of Mind And Body. Forward To The First Addition, Big Book Of Alcoholics Anonymous.
April- WOW you are so brainwashed. That is absolutely not true. People heal, move on and are not broken forever. Bill W never researched anything!!! neither has AA.
If you are truly alcoholic, you cannot drink safely. You cannot moderate. That is true with or without AA. You don’t need AA to stay sober but to say that she is brainwashed because she “knows” that she will never drink safely is very wrong.
Hi Samantha,
The idea that the “truly alcoholic” are incapable of drinking at lower levels is completely unproven. It is presented as if “alcoholics” literally lack the ability to drink any other way than full boar. It is presented as if they have an allergic reaction to a single drink that causes them to keep pouring and drinking drinks endlessly. BUT IT IS ALL WRONG.
Some people may choose to drink that way, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of drinking any other way. Any experiments that would’ve demonstrated a loss of control have demonstrated THE OPPOSITE. Here is a rundown of some of that information: Alcoholics and Addicts Don’t Lose Control.
Right now, you just don’t have the right information. Read the article above full of the stuff they never tell you in AA, and you’ll understand that anyone is capable of drinking moderately.
-Steven
No thanks. My personal experience is completely different and it is MINE, NOT what AA has brainwashed me to believe. I didn’t lose everything again and again because I “chose* to over-drink. My compulsion and craving is very different from people who are simply problem, heavy drinkers. After 30 years of hell with alcohol–periods of sobriety and periods of trying to moderate– I am incredibly clear that I cannot moderate.
I was watching a show about a man who was 900 pounds, couldn’t leave his bed and then died an early death. I have been overweight. Yet, my problems with food are clearly different than his problems with food. It would be arrogant of me to suggest that we are the same.
Why would I want to drink moderately? What would be the point? Never understood it, never will… and on occasions I did try it (moderate), in order to meet a commitment the next day, once I got a buzz all bets were off. If you have that ability my hats off to you. I’ll stick with abstinence thank you…and AA to stay abstained. AA doesn’t get you sober…just provides principles and coping skills to help stay sober.
to 28yrs:
I’m not trying to convince you to drink moderately. I’m not sure why you think the fact that you wanted many more drinks and proceeded to have many more drinks is evidence that you “can’t” drink moderately. I’d say it’s evidence that you “don’t want” to drink moderately.
to everyone else:
I hate mushrooms. If you put food that contains mushrooms in front of me, I won’t eat it. There have been times when I wished I didn’t hate mushrooms so that I wouldn’t offend people when they offer me food at their homes or parties that contains it. It would get me around some awkwardness of people making a fuss about it. I hate mushrooms so much that when people serve me food with a red sauce I always ask if it contains mushrooms, because people put it in there without telling you. I have to tell them I’m allergic – again, so there will be less of a fuss and I won’t be seen poorly as some stuck up fussy person who needs to be catered to. However, I am not allergic to mushrooms. I won’t swell up and need medical attention if I eat them. I am “capable” of eating mushrooms. But I don’t want to eat mushrooms.
I am not trying to convince anyone that they should drink moderately. I realized a few years back that the fact that people react as if I’m saying they “should” moderate, when in fact I am only saying that they are “capable” of moderate drinking, says a lot about what the recovery culture has done to them. I could say that I am capable of jumping off a bridge, but that certainly isn’t the same as saying I should jump off a bridge. Get it? To say that you can is not to say that you should.
The reason that “recovering addicts/alcoholics” interpret it as a should/recommendation to drink moderately is because the recovery culture approach is based entirely on “I can’t.” The recovery approach is one of self-deprivation, and belief in a handicap. In the recovery culture, the perceived benefits of substance use are left almost entirely unquestioned. On day one, you have to “admit you are powerless” – i.e. convince yourself that you are not in control of your substance use – and then hope for a miracle to remove your desire while you then proceed to fight your desire “one day at a time.” You try to arrange the world so that you won’t be tempted by drugs or alcohol, so that you won’t be triggered, so that you won’t get hungry, angry, lonely, or tired, and succumb to your desire.
So the desire is taken for granted as a constant from day one in the recovery culture, and you never critically examine where that desire comes from. You never re-evaluate whether your drug of choice is really “the only thing that makes me feel comfortable in my own skin” or whatever special powers you think it has. You just live your life thinking that being drunk or high is just the bees knees, and that it sucks that you can’t have it because your not a normie and you’ll lose control if you have any.
In the recovery culture, as I said, it’s all about self-deprivation, “I can’t”, resisting, arranging the world to nudge you away from substances, etc. It’s hilarious – they say it has nothing to do with willpower, but the whole thing is willpower based – trying to resist that first drink or hit. It sucks, which is why so many people fall apart repeatedly in the world of recovery.
The other way is to know that you are in control, and that you’ve been doing what you want, based on how valuable you think substances are to you, and to rethink whether it really relieves your stress, or whether you need it to socialize, or whether it really is all that pleasurable. When you change these opinions, your desire for substance use lessens or goes away completely. When you cease to feel you “need” it, it becomes incredibly easy to take it or leave it.
However, if you hold on to loss-of-control/addiction mythology, that garbage mentally blocks the way to any of this discovery. You’re too busy trying to scare yourself away from the first drink or hit to outgrow your old fascination with excessive substance use.
As for AA being inspired by the Buddha, I have been to meetings where Buddhists were literally attacked and made to leave at York Street in Denver. It needs to be advertised for what it is…a cult. An incestuous religious cult where women and young people are preyed upon every single day by people with Narcissistic personality Disorder and codependents. A lot of people who do not know how to manage their feelings. The recent addiction models and RESEARCH (fact based) indicate that addiction stems from a feeling of disconnection, previous trauma and an attempt to manage feelings…which AA teaches one to deny. i recently heard a woman with 20 years state her sponsor told her to “F..k her feelings”. That is the way SHE sponsors women. Feelings are what makes us human. i heard people state, “My brain needed washing”…how much more obvious that that does it get???
As a license MD, who is Board-Certified in (Adult or General) Psychiatry; Childs & Adolescent Psychiatry; Forensic Psychiatry and Psychosomatic Psychiatry with about 25 years of experience, April’s post sends chills up my spine. I’ve given new patients in AA/NA, the opportunity to pre sue my research and then ask them to chose between a cult that uncomfortable reminds me of the Third Reich to talk therapy/education, if necessary. (Some of these patients have or are better off with a Master Psychiatric Social Workers or Clinical Psychologists for more intense therapy. two or three times a week and see me from every two to four weeks. I DO lower my fees — by 50% — to surveyors of AA/NA Cult Abuse). Unlike AA/NA, some of my patients will no longer require medication (except for something minor, such as Xanax, and their family docs would write for that; I’m always available to confirm), they have the option of no longer seeing me (although I’ve been told my eclectic psychotherapy is just as effective as “Doctor Joey’s Cocktails”.There are AA/NA survivors whom I’ve diagnosed with Mood Disorders, treated with eclectic psychotherapy and appropriate meds — and NO. Im not them,ind of doc who is going to prescribe the powerful antipsychotic Risperdal for sleep simply because patients have a hx of drug abuse — and after a few years, three of them no longer require any therapy other than the psych meds I’ve prescribed.)
Excuse me, I’m sorry.. But Xanax is not “something minor”. Have you never seen someone come off of Xanax after long term use? Or even just a short term large dosage? This “medication” causes withdrawal that can kill someone. Have you ever seen delirium tremens? It looks like that. Hallucinations, delusions, grand mal seizures, vomiting and diarrhea causing dangerous dehydration. The post acute withdrawal syndrome from benzodiazepines is also hellish. Terror, extreme anxiety, loss of appetite, loss of sleep. The anxiety is non-linear so one never knows when it will hit them and they will be in a crying laying in the fetal position on the floor rocking back and forth. The post acute withdrawal can last for years and some poor individuals have taken their own lives from the hopelessness that comes from what this drug does to the brain chemistry. The medical community really needs to do research before doling out whatever chemical Big Pharma pushes at them. People try even a slow taper with horrendous results, and the doctor’s claim is that they need to stay on the drug. Incorrect, the drug causes worse anxiety at cessation than was ever present before the drug was introduced. This is a travesty. Doctors will even abruptly stop prescribing, causing the patient to go through the cold-turkey withdrawals that can kill them, and not being warned what this drug can do on cessation, the patient has no idea what is going on. Xanax is a horrible drug. Ask anyone who has gone through withdrawal from it.
Exactly where did you earn your MD and a PhD in Pharmacology. Benzodiazepines are safe very safe if used directed by RESPONSIBLE prescribers. You cant hold every licensed prescriber responsible for some of adverse effects you mention — and some that haven’t been proven, (Xanax hasn’t been around long enough to do specific studies to determine the consequences of long-term use, but I’ll give you a hint: If we didn’t see the nonsense you’re spouting with Librium, Valium, Rectorial, etc., we won’t see it with Xanax.) Incidentally, I’ve treated benzo and sometimes benzo-“PLUS” ODs. I’ve learned that I am one of the relatively few shrinks (as opposed to docs Board-cert in Critical Care and/or Emergency Med docs) who knows when NOT to administer the bento antagonist and when TO ADMINISTER IT. Of course I’ve seen withdrawal syndromes, symptoms, etc., although I don’t specialize is “Addiction Medicine” because the American Bd of Psychiatry & Neurology does not provide Residency programs or certifying Boars for this made-up specialty. You also can’t hold use responsible for patients not following clear and explicit orders or physicians overprescribing through ignorance…and very often greed. Never lost a patient I was called in to treat for an OD, btw? Can your AA/NA local or national cult group say the same. Shortly after I was licensed, I attended an AA meeting at the request of a colleague , a senior and highly-regarded psychiatrist. He said a patient told him that “her home group” (which included a DO…but he paid a 10K fine and had his license pulled for two years after I reported his behavior) kept hectoring her about not taking an phenothiazine-tricyclic antidepressant combination he had prescribed because “it is a mood-altering drug”. Damned right! It’s supposed to be. The pill was marketed as Trivial and Etrafon and both components have ZERO potential for abuse or addiction. After hearing a true “crock o’shit,” I told that GP that it’s illegal to interfere with other docs’ cases and his weekly “advice” to simply stop taking Triavil only only was was simply and Gross Negligabce in the Practice of the Profession but far beyond the scope of his training. The patient knew the full names and or tel #s of enough members for the State (MD/DO) Licensing Board to subpoena them to testify. “You’re not a priest; you’re not a doctor and you’re not married to this woman — you have no legal right to privilege.” That doc, who had been a great role model when it came to fighting ignorance on the front lines, was quite pleased. His expert testimony clinched the State Board’s decision and, of course, the doctor in AA [who MUST know more about all this than I do], was sued for Malpractice. He had no defense, either.
You are lying. You hold none of those degrees. Your statements are riddled with clinical misinformation and serious spelling and grammar errors no one would make with that level of education. I am a licenced clinal psychologist, P.h.D., and I can tell you, your list of specializations does not ring true.
Totally agree..it needs to be outed as a free group for choice, not court ordered for DUIS or after treatment suggestions from rehabs. The shut down would start with government and hospitals having other options to send people like SMART. AA can be shut down, but it would take work and alternatives.
No doubt, to paraphrase, AA is the worst form of treatment for recovery except for all those others that have been tried.
While AA’s “success rate” may not be much better than that of any other program, the fact that they reach the masses, as it were; AND that they do NOT “blacklist” anyone who has a desire to stop drinking, leads convincingly to the conclusion that AA IS RESPONSIBLE for the continued recovery of more human beings than all the other programs put together.
As for the nonsense in Paragraph 4 above; why resort to complete lies and untruths? :
AA does NOT “tell” its members that they must “follow the commands of senior AA members.
There is NO prohibition against talking “about what goes on at the meetings outside of the meetings”, except members are encouraged to respect the anonymity of other members.
There is NO prohibition against revealing one’s own membership in AA – only that of other members.
The suggestion that “AA takes the practice (of self-examination) to an extreme level asks its members to constantly humble themselves and admit their shortcomings, work on “character defects” perpetually, and to regularly confess to each other, constantly reliving their problems and thereby reinforcing a negative self-image.” is pure hogwash and a gross distortion of Steps 4, 5 and 10. Consider please that constantly striving to identify and eliminate one’s “character defects” can only lead to the reinforcement of a more positive self-image.”
Your suggestion that “the only way to live with themselves is to keep confessing to the group” is equally false. More often than not, members are encouraged to take there problems to their sponsor, their friends, family, clergyman, or therapist. Members are encouraged to share their experience, strength and hope at meetings.
Members who wish to “leave the group” or stop attending meetings are NOT “belittled”, told they are on the “verge of relapse”, or told “that they will DIE if they don’t keep up their meeting attendance”. No doubt each of these things may have been uttered by a member at some time, but it is absolutely NOT condoned by AA nor something that is generally practiced. Why suggest that it is?
Nor is it true that “threats will be made, and rumors will be passed about any member who seems as if they’re growing away from the group.” Again that’s utter nonsense and simply does NOT happen.
The fact that, in general, as your correctly point out, “the solution they offer indoctrinates a troubled person with the belief that they can only stay sober one day at a time, and that the only thing which will keep them from drinking is their “Higher Power”, a call to their AA “sponsor”, or a trip to a meeting.” does not, as you unreasonably conclude breed dependence on the group or mortal fear of leaving the group; but rather, for most members, a trust in the group as well as a trust in other people, a release from fear, and the discovery of a “new happiness” and a “new freedom”.
Hi Bill,
I disagree with much of what you have said here, for example:
“AA does NOT “tell” its members that they must “follow the commands of senior AA members.”
Then what about getting a sponsor? There is no explicit command that I know of off the top of my head to let a sponsor run your life, but surely you know that many sponsors tell their sponsees how to live. This is standard practice. “If you want what they’ve got, do what they did”, right? Now I suppose you’ll tell that’s not how you act as a sponsor, but an exception doesn’t change the rule – that is, it doesn’t change the fact that this is the experience for countless AA members.
What about “taking the cotton out of your ears and sticking it in your mouth”? This tells people that they shouldn’t think for themselves, and instead listen only to the other, apparently enlightened AA members who know what is best.
What about the common suggestion that you “make the group your higher power”?
There are so many ways that AA members are told to let other AA members run their lives, that it doesn’t matter that there is no formal proclamation – informally, it is a truth of AA that you should do so.
-Steven
Steven,
I, likewise, disagree with pretty much all of what you’ve said, primarily because your “suggestions” and beliefs referred to in your examples are simply wrong.
What about getting a sponsor? Sure, some AA members actually seek out sponsors that tell them “how to live” – usually people who’s illness has brought them to the brink of despair and who feel totally incapable of making decisions for themselves; and some sponsors are willing to assume that role and responsibility – but that is NOT “standard practice”. . Indeed how I personally act as as a sponsor is merely anecdotal and proves nothing about AA, but I am going to tell you that in my experience the vast majority of sponsor/sponsee relationships are more accurately characterized as friendships, mentors, helpers and guides than as controllers or even instruction givers.
What “taking the cotton our of your ears and sticking it in your mouth?” Your suggestions are incorrect and naive. The phrase is equally applicable, for example, to a first year medical student – sort of a polite way of saying “shut up and listen!” It in no way suggests that people should not still think for themselves.
What about “make the group your higher power?” And what about make a door knob your higher power? Are you suggesting that AA members are encouraged to allow door knobs to tell them how to lead their lives? On the contrary, AA members are NOT told to let other AA members run their lives, and it is certainly NOT a “truth of AA” at all; rather, members are encouraged to find their own way, find their own “higher power”, and when possible help others by practicing the principles of the twelve steps in all their affairs . . . . hardly cultish.
just check out the aa police in great britain. They address all the culty aspects of AA that arent even part of AA but friggen Clancy and his batshit crazy old men predators made up a new version of AA.
Another point I disagree with:
“AA IS RESPONSIBLE for the continued recovery of more human beings than all the other programs put together.”
“All the other programs” is tricky wording, because there are no other programs as widespread as AA, and while there may be many AA’s who have successfully changed their substance use habits, and who may attribute their success to AA, there is still no evidence that the 12-steps were responsible for their changes. AA essentially claims to be responsible for the success of people who would’ve solved their problems on their own anyways. That is, there is no evidence that AA or 12-step based treatment gets a higher rate of success than doing nothing at all. Please read this, and then tell me what you think: http://www.thecleanslate.org/self-change/substance-dependence-recovery-rates-with-and-without-treatment/
Oh, so you’re one of the two researchers I’ve read about! My own doctoral studies involved a research project on AA/NA. (We could select the topic; if we couldn’t do basic research on a topic, the question arises: “How is it that you were admitted to a PhD program at at Ivy League university.) I majored in both Journalism and English. The research part was pretty easy. Today, I’m a practicing psychiatrist (and my PhD in English and American Lit helps me quite a bit in my professional practice) and I understand that susceptibility to AA/NA propaganda has nothing to do with religious affiliation, income or even education. Not that I’d ever do this, but a shrink with my reputation and a month or two of weekly or twice-weekly sessions CAN implant “Repressed Memories” and if we really are seriously committed “recruiters” for these cults. I’ve seen brilliant physicians, including the eminent cardiothoracic surgeon who performed tricky, life-saving surgery on me among them. I’m bright and competent, but even my Ivy League BA, PhD and MD and 25 years of experience pale before his. I’ve been taking meds for mood disorders for 13 years without ever thinking that I could score an extra script for Xanax or Percocet 10/325 (once or twice monthly) for severe headaches that have signs and symptoms from about 12 recognized headache syndromes. He wanted me to go to NA. He did have research on his desk prepared especially for me. I asked him how much he knew about the AA/NA cults and what his personal experience with AA/NA has been. He attended one open meeting back in Med School; it was required for a course he was taking. I take Xanax 2mg QID for Panic Attack Disorder w/o Agoraphobia (because that’s the indication in the PDR — but it’s easier to stick to official indications. I was on a trip five years ago and found that I had packed a fresh bottle of Tofranil-PM and forgot the Xanax. It didn’t take me too long to experience rebound anxiety and the worst was yet to come. Fortunately, I remembered the name of a colleague in that city who was fluent in English, because my French limited to the point of meaningless. Since Xanax is not available for injection
Hey Bill! You’re the only voice of reason here is this anti/XAer “Let’s bash A.A. and link to Stinkin’ Thinkin’ and Orange and Stanton Peele Sites” blog.
Of course everybody here is going to disagree with you. That’s what they are here for… hating on A.A.
Hating on A.A. and arguing with those who know better.
The A.A. that they describe is all one big “fancied resentment” they have against A.A.
They have but one solution besides what A.A. has to offer… that’s basically go to the Orange Papers, the Stinkin’ Thinkin’ Blog, or their wonderful Anti/XAer Radio Show… where they can do… are you ready for this? Bitch and moan about A.A. They usually don’t have too many folks take the time out of their busy lives to point out the stupidity of their claims… they usually just sit around and spin anti/XAer stories with each other and join in on each others’ “Victims R Us Pity Party.”
Oh, but they sure do work hard at hating A.A. Oh, and they”re growing in numbers too. Maybe one day, they’ll wake up, get bored, and get jobs… or maybe even lives! I’d rather drink booze than sit around and bitch about A.A. for 2 years straight and counting.
Strange post being that Steven uses a very sane affordable approach to helping others with addiction problems.
Why would you even come to his site if you love AA so much and think this way about us.
Many thousands I believe will come forward who have been hurt by AA and its predatory ways.
The proof will be in the pudding.
WE have found like minded people. Why do you want to fight with people who have moved on or are just trying to make AA safer for all.
Many of us have very busy full lived now. We have found a community we feel a part of unlike AA and it’s archiac , sexist, male dominated, religious, faith healing hogwash that was written by the lunatic BIll W.?
Sorry I once loved Bill and his crazy story till I learned the truth. He was a pretty messed up dude.
Severely Depressed at 18 years sober taking mega vitamin therapy to cure his ailing head. Dropping LSD ( common knowledge) to find GOD. WHich is just about the time he wrote the traditions. WHich are completely outdated . Back the AA screened everyone first.
I read Bill Wilson’s first Biography in 1976 that AA GSO would not put their stamp on. He was so isolated and depressed at 18 years sober that It made me feel better to read it with 18 months of sobriety in that same year.
Why would I “even come to his site if I love AA so much” and “why do you want to fight with people who have move on or are just trying to make AA safer for all” are red herring questions.
It seems to me that the goal here is to falsely attack AA. I stumbled upon the site and saw no harm is posting an alternative view to what I believe are utter falsehoods.
For the record, I don’t “love AA so much”; nor do I disagree with you that Bill W can be reasonably characterized as a lunatic and a “pretty mussed up dude”.
However your characterization of all of AA as “archaic, sexist, male dominated, religious, faith healing hogwash” is nonsense; perhaps you did not learn as much about acceptance and respect for others in your “18 months of sobriety” as you think you did.
However your characterization of all of AA as “archaic, sexist, male dominated, religious, faith healing hogwash” is nonsense; perhaps you did not learn as much about acceptance and respect for others in your “18 months of sobriety” as you think you did.
Ah, yea it is. Archaic, sexist male dominated, rhetoric driven…antiquated, closed minded, self absorbed.
Yea there are great people there. Im still friends with some.
Not 18 months Im sober 35 years. you acceptance speech here is a bunch of more of the AA hogwash.
It is Not the answer to everything. That is so ridiculous.
What are some facts about AA Anyway?
Not much to boast about here.
Actually, AA as a method/”treatment” to keep one sober is the most embarrassing thing I have every found. An absolute joke!
Below is a non-exhaustive list, otherwise AA would be way, way farther down from #38 which is below a placebo at #34.
IN ORDER OF EFFICACY:
http://www.behaviortherapy.com/ResearchDiv/whatworks.aspx
1 Brief interventions
2 Motivational enhancement
3 GABA agonist (Acamprosate)
4.5 Community Reinforcement
4.5 Self-change manual (Bibliotherapy)
6 Opiate antagonist (Naltrexone)
7 Behavioral self-control training
8 Behavior contracting
9 Social skills training
10 Marital therapy-Behavioral
11 Aversion therapy-Nausea
12 Case managment
13 Cognitive Therapy
14.5 Aversion Therapy, Covert Sensitization
14.5 Aversion therapy, Apneic
16 Family therapy
17 Acupuncture
18 Client-centered Counsling
19 Aversion therapy, Electrical
20 Exercise
21 Stress Management
22 Antidipsotropic- Disulfiram
23 Antidepressant-SSRI
24 Problem Solving
25 Lithium
26 Marital therapy- Nonbehavioral
27 Group process psychotherapy
28 Functional analysis
29 Relapse prevention
30 Self-monitoring
31 Hypnosis
32 Psychedelic medication
33 Antidipsotropic-calcium carbimide
34 Attention Placebo
35 Serotonin agonist
36 Treatment as usual
37 Twelve-step facilitation
38 Alcoholics anonymous
39 Anxiolytic medication
40 Milieu therapy
41 Antidipsotropic-metronidazole
42 Antidepressant medication (non-SSRI)
43 Videotape sefl-confrontation
44 Relaxation training
45 Confrontational Counseling
46 Psychotherapy
47 Gerneral alcoholism counseling
48 Education (tapes, lectures, or films)
Bill. Are you kidding. AA is filled with all sorts of rules. You can be an oldtimer male and sexual molest children, rape women in AA and get away with it, 13 step you heart out, rip off senior for millions and be told it’s an outside issue.
It won’t be long before there is a huge lawsuit suing AA in NY and in any big city where the districts have money in the bank and insurance.
Quick Credentials: MD, Yale, PhD, NYU. Board-certified in five of the seven psychiatric sub-specialities. Been practicing for about 25 years. I literally was kidnapped into AA by a college physician who claimed she USED to take 30 Nembutals daily. She called them sleeping pills, so I’m going to assume that she ingested . I’ve since learned that barbiturate addicts have a ceiling dose (different for each and no way to determine) beyond which they will die. I was a confused college freshman and, because I was such a good kid and wrote flattering stories about the U Health Center, I pretty much got what I wanted. However, that Finals Week, I screwed up and (I know we have a term for this; I just don’t remember it), my brain froze. I was at no time close to death or even injury. Our Dorm’s RA called it in and the usual excerpts, U Dept of Public Safety officers, took me to the Health Center ER. I figured I’d be well cared-for — that place had an undeservedly bad rep when I was a freshman, but after a in-depth feature story or two, they made improvements. I was sure I’d know the covering doctor. I knew her all right — as a brainwashed AA/NA zombie. EVERY doctor should know that a patient who is not competent to make a decision regarding treatment shouldn’t be pressured or forced. She did both and paid no attention to my explaining that some of the meds I took were for what we today call GAD. Why no Hx and Physical? Doctor Nembutal wanted to leave early to catch her vacation flight to Exuma! I signed some papers and then was transported to the Psych ER of a local hospital,. My own personal physician at the U Health Center couldn’t discharge me — I probably signed a 72-hour Psych Hold authorization. What no one wanted to realize is that after close to three days without sleep, and the pills, I was NOT competent to give my consent to anything. My doc called my sister, who was and is a world-class attorney. She told the staff that if I was immediately discharged, she’d have the whole staff charged with Unlawful Imprisonment and other crimes. She had colleagues in that state that enabled her to practice using her NY and NJ licenses. She was a Felony Sex Crimes Prosecutor for the legendary Manhattan DA, Robert Morgenthau. He was very fond of Anne; she was at her best in Court. She and her law school buddies (other Yalie’s) knew and liked me. A couple were prosecutors and one was a Civil Attorney and a few employe by the US Attorney’s Office, known as AUSAs! Stupidly, I returned to the same university in September was was bombarded with AA/NA propaganda. Most in my group know that I’m gay, so they sent the cutest, hottest, most buff recruiters. I left AA/NA permanently when a physician in AA told the patient of a colleague to STOP taking her prescribed meds (Triavil – a ,amor tranquilizer + Elavil and absolutely NOT addicting) because Triavil is a mood-altering drug. I had my licenses, but still was doing Residencies, so I spoke up said “I know Dr. Casey. I’ve consulted him a few times. He’s unequivocally the BEST shrink on town and he knows his meds.”Triavil is supposed to be a mood-altering drug — it’s indicated for mixed anxiety/depression, in factWhen I told this country quack that I was going to file a formal complaint with the State Board of Medicine, he accused me of not working my Program, I told him that I have a near perfect memory (which is true) and I’d be providing the names of other witnesses. One member shouted a,ing the clam or that I “can’t do that because this is an Anonymous Program.” I told him that AA/NA has NONE of the privileged communication status such as doctor-patient; priest-penetient; therapist-client and that I’d report what I damned well knew. We ended up suing the University doc for “malpractice” to which complaints to the censure board included Patient Abandonment (and back to Federal law, unlawful Imprisonment, Gross Negligence in the Practice of the Profession). I didn’t want the U Health Center named because they were VERY good to me. They always got me to a shrink when I needed on; the Charge Nurses sent me around the back to see my doc, etc. We met; I told him the licensing board’s sanctions will be sufficient, but that he must fire her for cause. He did and the licensing board revoked her license for five years. The other doctor really got zapped, because that girl’s shrink was well-connected and her husband was a state legislator. Besides, he had “priors” like practicing medicine stoned out of his mind. He lost his license permanently. One of my sister’s colleagues was at the hearing to restore Dr. Nembutal’s license early, but she [presented evidence that caused the licensing board to ADD two years to her revocation. The PhD is a research degree and, at NYU, no department handed you a PhD because you fulfilled courses requirements; they wanted to see evidence of original research. My research into the history of AA/NA revealed some appalling stuff. No one who believes “The Bill W Story” or is enslaved by the “12 and 12” should be allowed outdoors without a keeper. And there is no VALID and RELIABLE research on AA/NA’s successes and failures because the sample is fluid and there hasn’t been anything that I’d consider valid FOLLOW-UP.
If AA reached the masses as you say up here, then my meeting would keep growing wouldn’t it. But it doesn’t grow at all. nor has it grown in 20 years. In 1975 when I got stupidly sober at 18 , AA was growing. Meetings went from 10 to 100 through into the 80’s. More stars got sober and it became “cool” to be sober for a few years.
Fast forward, to the last 5-6 years. Meetings in LOS ANGELES, have disappeared. WE’ve been thrown out of many churches/halls.
SO my little women’s meeting that has 40 women in it every week never grows, even though we always have new woman. Very few come back and stay for the long haul anymore. They say, ” The Big Book is archaic” …I agree.
They say it’s sexist…I agree, They say it’s too religious…and what kind of religion is thsi anyway…some made up crap from 1936???? I agree, even though I got sober in AA.
Why? The Sexual Harassment is at an all time high. IN mixed meetings it’s disgusting what’s going on.
Cult? Yup I think I have been in a cult after all these Sober years, I am fed up with the bS I see and hear at Every level in AA, from group to NYGSO, to area, to district!
Charlie Sheen’s rant could not have come at a better time as far as I am concerned.
I have been trying to get someone to hear me, see, what is going on inside AA. I was told by an LA times reporter that the “police ” needed to be involved before it could be a story.
WEll guys, Kristine and Saundra Cass were murdered, Tracy WHite was murdered, rapes are occurring, and the list goes on and on …the stinkin-thinkin site.
Thanks Steve for your site, Thanks Charlie for your rant and speaking the truth. You are not alone.
ANd because of ST I am not alone anymore.
My PhD is in Journalism, but I’m also a real, live, licensed MD Board-certified in Psychiatry and four or five of our subspecialties. I had no experience in journalism and advertising when I was forcibly recruited into AA/NA, but in the years since, I can tell you that the tone of “Bill W’s” writing is nothing more than the transparent sales lingo of the 1920s. I do have a graduate student who is writing her PhD dissertation specifically on what we a lll know about these groups — complete lack of logic, rampant 13th Stepping, etc. She’s been going to meetings and recording them as part of her research. Even though I’ve always been too busy to be on anyone’s Dissertation Committee, her a call from one of MY old professors, I agreed to do so. His rationale was that she’ll need a medical. perspective from time to tome and he always went the extra mile for students, including me. after agreeing, I received a call from one of the Dean’s offices asking what faculty I held — we all forgot about that. but the same ingenious professor told me I had more than sufficient credentials to be appointed as Clinical Professor of Psychology.
MADE AN ERROR: My PhD is in English and American Literature. My BA is in Journalism and I worked for about a year as a reporter for one of the country’s top ten daily papers.. However, I didn’t like living in what then was known as “Murder City” and the home of Diana Ross and the Supremes. Renting is “safe neighborhoods” meant paying triple.
BillP..
Almost everything you say is the exact opposite of what AA is…
One of the first few AA meeting I went to this old timer(I was told a true old timer has twenty plus years) stood up and said, “this(AA) is not a debating society..”
Ironically the topic was “sponsorship” and his words were code for — listen to me(ie-any sponsor!) The recurring slogan I heard was “Your best thinking got you here..” — Code for let me(sponsor/group/aa) think for you.
Although once going to a meeting you think everything are simple suggestions and there are no “rules”.. But after being around in my past for a couple of years, I learned there is very much a brainwashing and mind control that goes on in AA. I learned this first when I said in a mens meeting that I was here because I had a drinking problem but I do not have a disease. I learned first hand in that meeting how controlling the “old timers” were and how they definitely wanted to “stop you” from saying anything outside the AA speak.
I had to laugh when you said that its not an AA practice to tell others the’ll dies, become hospitalized in an insane asylum or in prison. Are you kidding me? That scare tactics were said at nearly every meeting I ever attended by at least one person. You’re clever in how you dismiss this fact by wanting evidence that this is what AA prescribes to or agrees with. It’s a “slick” tactic.. But if you are in AA, then you know scare tactics are the norm.
Thinking for yourself is frowned upon–remember, “our best thinking got us here..” was what was told to me over and over again as I was hesitant going through with the “fourth/fifth” step.. I was told over and over again how I would “relapse” if I didn’t get a sponsor and do the steps. Well, in my opinion, my mistakes are between me and G-d and there’s no way i’ll share anything with people I couldn’t trust. Then I was told to go to a priest, counselor etc..
Well, my opinion–“my stinking thinking” was/is–it’s nobody’s business. Then I was continually told–“you will fail..you need to do the steps etc..” Do you see the steady stream of mind control here..? Any right thinking person would. But this is what gets me–the whole “Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions..” I became friends with this guy in AA who had 28years until he betrayed my anonymity. When I told him to respect my privacy he acted as if I had the problem with accepting my AA “MEMBERSHIP to normies!” I told him that just because other “normies” (another cult like/weird term to further make the “alkie” differen’t from everyone else) doesn’t mean I wanted my privacy violated.
My eyes kept opening up to the lies that go on in AA. They as individuals can get away with anything, saying or doing in those rooms simply because there is zero accountabilityin AA. I’m not even goiing to mention the countless women I’ve heard were groped and preyed on by “old timers” who view members as theirs for the taking–mentally or physically…
AA is very controlling and scary when viewd objectively.
BillP, Thanks for posting.
After 3 decades in AA, I came in at 18, I am planning my escape…LOL…but sincerely, so much I agree with you . All of it actually.
I feel so foolish having been in the cult for so long. I have wasted many years. I have been trying to expose the sex harassment, financial scamming, the 13 stepping, the sponsorship abuse for over 2 years now.
I am coming to the end of my rope here. I am going outside of AA to warn the innocent public and to tell the world of other ways to stop. Steven can help, Smart Recovery, LifeRIng, Women for Sobriety, SOS, Harm Reduction, Moderation Management.
I once adored AA. I hate it now. I do not want to be associated with it. AT it’s people are rude and mean.
I have people writing me such sad stories from all over the country about bad 13 stepping. EVEn guys who are seeing the predators at work, in action , is pissing them off too.
NY GSO does nothing. The structure DOES not work.
$12,000,000 million dollars flowing thru NY’s World Office…did you know that. DO you know where all that money is going? A non-profit….
know the truth… do most members know the truth?
Nope.
“Non-Profits” have to file forms yearly with at least the state in which they are incorporated. A good Civil Attorney who knows what to look for cam find it (most of on Public Record) and file Freedom of Information Act requests. You can get most records of non-profits (especially what money goes where) in this manner.
I think people don’t realize that AA is outdated. I got in one fight with my dad while we were both drinking and he started kicking my moms ass, I came to her aid but because he owned the house I got kicked out subsequently I had no money and because I got kicked out I was forced to go into AA because Sober living is cheap, regardless that doesn’t qualify me as being a dishonest person. AA has a lot of positive things to bring to the table but because of the fact that it is outdated and the morality of the program has been jeopardized by people that don’t want it but are forced because of court orders creates an aggregate based off of honestly and dishonesty within its members. What worked for me was church, Jesus Christ not some guy that created a book in the 1930’s Bill W is nothing more then the equivalent of Jim Jones Yeah AA is a Cult. I have been ripped off by people in AA and sober living. I also don’t understand why someone that runs a sober living home makes profitability 500% if they own property they make upwards to 5 grand a month yet cannot afford to install heating and air conditioning and lets rats and bed bugs swarm the home you live in. On top of that you have “house managers” that are in charge of running a sober living home yet are in recovery as well, they get stressed out and for the most part relapse over the stressfulness of controlling not only their addiction but other peoples addictions as well. AA is a cult. Jesus Christ saved my soul not some wacked out guy on LSD named Bill.
Someone from your organization ought to contact Sheen and inform him of your solidarity to his cause, and give him a link to this page so he could see the outpouring of agreement and outrage; he could make great hay of that, I’m sure.
I also think a huge class action law suit or something similar to what victims of predatory sexuality in the Catholic church regarding sexual abuses and coersion in AA could bring them down.
And a huge letter writing campaign to the medical industry and lawmakers might convince them to take several steps back in the future, instead of blindly steering abusers to 12 step programs that really don’t work when examined objectively.
If it hasn’t been said here, I want to assert that I honestly believe that traditional counseling – talk therapy – is probably the very best approach there is; it gives people with shaky self esteem and shame issues the tools they need to create stronger, happier selves that do not find substances tempting any longer – true freedom!
Maybe this branch of the medical establishment could form some sort of resolution or strategy that would disseminate these ideas to the public at large and exert pressure upon policy makers and the media to dissociate themselves from AA. This cult has to be stopped so people can get meaningful help.
All the AA folks I know are wound so tight they are about to explode. It’s no solution, it’s more of a crappy band-aid. And none of them are ever steered towards talk therapy – in fact they are actively discouraged, from what I have seen. None of the folks I know who do AA have ever sat down with a therapist. They are all a bunch of mealy-mouth cowards. Fearless moral inventory my ass. Put you butt in the chair, chump. ‘Nuff said.
Leslie,
I so agree. If you followed me on Stinkin-thinkin.com and my blog you will see that you and I and many are in complete agreement with all you say here.
I am so grateful to ST and all who have written thier horror stories to me as well from all over the US and UK and Australia.
I am doing outreach in the director that you speak of. Maybe we can talk privately through my email
makeaasafer@gmail.com
ABout the final part of your post. ” All the AA folks I know are wound so tight they are about to explode. It’s no solution, it’s more of a crappy band-aid.”
I have started a radio show on blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery On Tuesdays at 6PM PST I will be discussing exactly this.
Myself and just a few others did major therapy adn rage work that changed me forever. I hope we can speak on the phone. Maybe you can call in or we can just talk. I made a short film on youtube inwood75 is that handle and its “AA Puff pieces in the newspaper.
Thanks for a great post.
Massive Attack
Of course Charlie Sheen has every right to speak his mind about AA and his experiences with that organization. However, I think that he goes too far when he “outs” the shows creator about being a member, and referring to him as a “Nazi”.
Why… he is an AA NAZI . Did you not hear what he said about Charlie?
We don’t leave our constitutional rights — including that of Free Speech — when we enter AA/NA meetings. If the show’s creator is so committed to AA, he should have said so to the media in the aftermath of Sheen’s meltdown.
so the shows Producer get to be an AA bigshot who gets to bully people like charlie because he knows better!
Los Angeles is to full of this crap. Im glad someone put him in his place and called a spade a spade.
GO Charlie! my blog stop13stepinaa exposes many of the things you’ve been saying.
cant believe i,ve wasted 5minutes of my life reading that complete and utter shite, what a fucking massive ego you have, then reading the comments saying (hit it on the head AGAIN) FUCK ME EVEN YOUR PARENTS MUST BE SAYING OH NO HE,S ASKING US TO SAY SOME NICE THINGS ON HIS PAGE AGAIN.., I BET YOUR THE KINDA CUNT WHO CANT LOOK THE HOMELESS IN THE EYE WHEN THEY ASK YOU FOR ANY SPARE CHANGE, YOUR A SAD LITTLE INSIGNIFICANT MAN AND HOPEFULLY I,M NOT THE ONLY ONE ONE WHO CAN SEE YOU FOR WHAT YOU ARE. HAVE A NICE DAY YOU ALL.. !ARESHOLE!
Thanks for the blog! As a former member of the AA cult, I’m so glad to see such a well put together blog. I was made to go into an AA run treatment center as a teenager, followed by time in halfway houses, etc.. Then in my early twenties I attended meetings pretty much once a day for 4 years. So I know what AA meetings are like.
Since I”ve been to a lot of AA meetings, I can confidently say that what bill in princeton describes is not the usual AA situation. Maybe he just happens to be in some super-refined meetings, but I’ve been in meetings in several states and can say it follows the standard practices of a cult.
Now, I’ve left AA and am following my dream of being a scientist and am in grad school. Recently I went to a conference and was struck by the way the scientists there were the warmest and most unassuming people I’ve ever met. I compared this to an AA retreat I went to one time, where all I did was listen to people talk about how great AA was over and over and over again. They talked about how beautiful and spiritual it was to be with thousands of other AAer’s.
It all boiled down to how great AA was!!!
I swear, the template for 80% of what everyone ever says in a meeting is how they had a problem, they did such and such recommended by AA, and that now they feel better and -they definitely didn’t leave this next part off- that AA is great! People never failed to bring up how AA was like their ‘family’. BS.
It makes me feel SO happy to see that this monopoly on so called “treatment” for addiction is being analyzed and hopefully, eventually changed.
It also makes me so mad to have to listen to clear lies by people like bill in princeton acting like everything in AA is super laid back. GIve me a break. Of course, you’re not forced to do anything in AA -but the constant mentioning of the threat of death from not following AA is just as strong as anything. And this is the same technique used in cults in general.
@billinprinceton: consider proselytizing for AA on forums that are not meant to analyze the flaws in this program. AA, a religious-derived organization from the 1930’s, is the primary means of treating addiction in this country?!? That is a tragedy. Besides, people who have been in AA themselves and aren’t *brainwashed* by the hundreds of thought-stopping slogans recognize that what you are saying is distorted and, indeed, plain dishonest.
It makes me so passionate and angry to think that people who are desperate and in need of help with their addiction end up faced with an religious cult. I know this statement may sound strange to people who have not looked at AA closer than the idea they might get from short blurbs on the news, or form anecdotes from friends. But it is true. Many professionals in alcoholism and sociology have concluded that AA is a cult. For example, please see the essay by L. Allen Ragels. He gives thorough references and analysis to his conclusions that AA is a cult. Thanks for reading the long comment!
Tim b- Glad to hear you are going on to be scientist and that left AA.
I too went to AA as a teen, sorry to hear you were sent there. Great post! Thanks.
Well said, Tim.
I completely agree with Charlie Sheen as crazy as he is. I went into recovery and AA under the advice and ultimatums given to me by my friends who I did not realize were also in the cult of AA. I went through the recovery process for a little over 3 years and throughout that three years I never felt worse. Inherently I felt that there was something wrong and that something wasn’t quite right but I felt intimidated to express that and explore it which is completely out of character for me because I am incredibly individualistic and believe in rationally and logically criticizing everything in order to reach the core truth about ideas and concepts. I finally reached a point where I managed to leave in some bizarre turn of events. My personality completely changed and I was experiencing and doing things that were completely against my set of standards and usual behavior. As time progressed it progressively got worse and I began doing research on hypnotism and brainwashing tactics. The more research I did I realized that my own experiences I was going through correlated with what I was going through everyday which varied from harassment from people in my community and on the street to bizarre and violent ideations based on past traumas I had incurred and had shared under the recovery community protocol to share your every deepest and darkest secret to purge yourself of guilt. I soon realized that these ideations and harassments correlated with acting on behaviors that the recovery community indoctrinate as being against their ideals. I am still undergoing this and am still constantly being harassed by AA members. It has completely made my life difficult but I refuse to coward or leave NYC which I have called home for a large part of my life. If anyone is interested in more detail about my experiences or would like to take an account of what I am going through I would be more then happy to do so. I have been looking for various avenues to share what I have been going through so that other people dont make the same mistake i do. Feel free to contact me at benitojon@gmail.com if you are interested. Thank you
So how are suppose to combat the brainwashing of the AA and constant harassment if you don’t comply?
AA is a cult. They gang up on people they don’t like, take advantage of and brainwash people. I used to go to AA and was always tormented. Today, I have been sober for over 5 years without AA and I am happier than I ever was in that disgusting CULT.
The people that are wasting all this time bashing AA and calling it a “cult” seem to me to be the ones in the cult! I personally have first-hand experience and am an active member in both AA/NA and am a 19 year old alcoholic/addict. AA did not single-handedly save my life, it was a combination of medication – assisted therapy, support from my friends and family, and also of course regular 12 – step meeting attendance. The hatred on this page is absolutely laughable and misguided. I do not necessarily agree with everything AA has too say and I do not feel obligated to even do so! What I do know is that today I have a good life, I am not a brain – washed cult member, and that I do not have to ever drink or get high again. I am a free-thinking human being who has been guided by the principles and steps of AA to live a better life and to be a good person and the crazy thing is, is that I am actually happy for the first time in my life!
I hope that you all enjoy your little AA bashing party, and I hope that one day you can see past your resentments and hatred and see AlcoholicsAnonymous for what it truely is, a program that saves many hopeless peoples lives and sanity. Goodluck and God Bless!
Also! Some people can get sober without AA/NA, and I applaud you! I do not believe that you MUST be a fully-functioning member of the Fellowship to get and stay clean. Forgot too include this in my post!
Almost a year, how are you doing on your journey? I have a feeling you may have faded out of AA like many young people do.
No higher power is prescribed, it is only suggested that a new comer look for one. Why? Because it has worked for others. I like Charlie Sheen, but he was out of line breaking other people’s anonymity. Which is important because the world at large attaches a great deal of stigma to the self claimed label of ‘alcoholic’. I think most of you that post about how “I was in AA for years, and I can tell you that it is a cult” are those who treated it like a cult. Stupid is as stupid does.
I think it’s crap that step 1 that you have to say you are powerless to alcohol. That’s like putting alcohol in a higher power role. I believe I’m powerless to nothing. If I say I can’t, I won’t. Can’t means won’t. I can stop, and did stop drinking. You have to want to stop and be stubborn as hell. This is coming from someone that drank a fifth of vodka in a day or two. The first day sucked. The tremors were so bad that I almost considered sitting to pee because I couldn’t even pee straight. Lol. I was embarrassed for someone to see eat in public because I couldn’t get food to my mouth with a fork without occasionally dropping it from the shakes. After the detox was over, there was no shakes. Time frames vary for everyone, I was lucky. My were VERY bad, but only 24 hours….they said it would be 72.
After the detox phase, I was so pissed at alcohol from that 24 hours of hell, I completely detest it and have no cravings. I did learn that orange juice and honey stops cravings, so I used that as a preventative/proactive measure first thing in the morning rather than the old hat-vodka. I’ve lost 16 pounds in 3 weeks from not drinking and feel awesome with too much energy. So much energy that it’s hard to sleep sometimes. If you don’t know the science behind alcohol, your body converts it to sugar.
Another thing I can’t stand about AA is that if you wish to speak at meetings, you have to say your first name, then I’m an alcoholic. What kind of brainwashing Hitler style mentality is that when you say I’m an alcoholic several times an hour everyday? At first I would just say, I’m Brent, and hear just trying to figure it out. I could tell they didn’t like it, but don’t care. It’s my life and I wasn’t there for anyone but me. Also, one of the rules are you are not aloud to talk if you’ve had a drink that day. What? Did they consider that that person may really need to talk. What if it was a 10 year sober person that broke sobriety after losing a spouse?
I’m not hear to bash AA. I’ve learned a few things. I like being able to talk with others about how stupid I was before I saw my problem.
I’m a bit confused on a few things. They always say that the “disease” grows with you in sobriety. They’ve said countless times in meetings that if you pick one drink that it’s like you’ve been drinking the entire time and you WIIL eventually DIE. How is that even possible? I firmly believe that my entire body chemistry will not change overnight to a 20 year drinking everyday drunk after having been sober 20 years. Is there any scientific proof of that?
I will give AA some credit as a Christian. I have a much stronger relationship with God and pray daily on many things from family to income and my sobriety. I do believe he has helped me in my sobriety and detox and giving me my will and stubbornness to not take a drink. My curiosity is driving me nuts just to see if I could have a beer, although I’m not craving it. Just to see if AA is full of crap on being throw n back to the depths of hell and addiction. I’ve quit successfully once. I know how to quit. I’m not afraid of AA’s theory. I’m just wondering if that’s a fear cult-like tactic. Guess that’s the science teacher mentality wanting to prove my theory. Curiosity won’t kill this cat!
One last thing. While being in the meetings, I’ve never felt like I should be there. It did feel cult like and I’m on the outside. They never did anything to me to make to feel that way, I just did t feel like I was like anyone there. I’m sure they are sick of hearing my success. People are relapsing, sad all the time, saying the can’t (won’t) Everyone counts their days sober. The only reason I ever know is because they pass out these carnival like chips that kids play with. I almost feel guilty when I say I just made up my mind to quit and did cold turkey.
A friend of mine always asks me to go to his meeting always tries to guilt trip me for not attending every night…that’s kind of creepy and cult like. He also works for me and we had a difference in opinion in our career. I’ve been a financial consultant for 15 years and he was for two days. He actually told my boss that he thought I was drunk on our last meeting. Nice anonymity bro! Lol.
To summarize, science changes, methods of healing changes, how can something created by a junky in the 1930’s be the only way as the big book says? The look down on any other way? When they relapse, they run to a treatment center for months then RUN back to AA that didn’t work the first time! Second time! Or many other times. How many times does someone beat their head on a brick have to hit their head before they realize they may need to consider other options? I think if they rewrite the steps without having to confess they are powerless and a few other things, drop the junkie that wrote the big book and extract some of the really good points from the big book and rewrite it to be more modern and all not roses if you follow the steps, then it would be more of a group more people would attend. AA is just a begginers kit to sobriety and does help you start thinking about your alcoholic actions and put you on a path, but the truth is between you and God or whatever you believe. YOU HAVE TO CHANGE YOURSELF.
Thanks for all the posts. That’s my 20 cents.
I’m Brent, and I’m NOT an alcoholic!
There is a problem with Charlie’s remarks, though, He often showed up for work in no condition to work and they had to redshift scenes to accommodate him. He also had 5 sobers years in AA until he decided he wanted the party. Back. He said sobriety is boring and tht he didn’t want it.
So where is h now? He just came out with the fact that he is HIV positive from his lifestyle choices. CharlieSheen is a mentally ill man with many more problems than just alcohol addiction. Read the rest of what he said during that time aboutChuck, that he kept him from making a paycheck, thus putting his family at risk. Never mind that he spent half a million on hookers, drugs and other things that surely didn’t go to the benefit of his family. And that was per year. Church Lorre isn’t the bad guy here. he can run his ship the way he wants and people who don’t want that don’t have to sign his contracts. Incidentally, Charlie was never made by him to go to AA. He also wasn’t willing to go anywhere else. Charlie wanted the party. Now Chuck does some comedies on addiction. Disclosing his membership didn’t hurt him at all.
This article is crap! You can’t write about something you know nothing about or have not the slightest understanding of how it works! The only people who have ever claimed that A.A. is a cult are the ones who can’t stay sober or non-acoholics who get their info from a person with failed sobriety. I’ve been sober for 18 years in A.A. so I speak from experience!